Is this a common Scotrail scam?

[bAzTNM]

If he does this every day, and the guard changes it every day, then I wonder how long it will be before he runs out of #£20 notes ?!

It could be the same £20 note!

 

[PaulLothian]

There is a big issue in various settings with the fact that ATMs now normally only dispense £20 and £10 notes. My other half now takes twice as much float with her when selling at craft fairs than she did 10 years ago - we reckon that for a big event we need up to £100. Scotrail's £40 float seems rather niggardly, though not as bad as one of our local bus drivers who told me he was sent out with £10 of change!

 

[bb21]

It could be the same £20 note!

Yes but won't be the same one if the guard has sufficient change for it everyday.

 

[BestWestern]

The TE or Guard (not sure if TE's carry UFN pads?!) should issue the guy with a UFN, but in reality if it's a busy train with lots of fares to collect then it isn't really in anybody's interest to spend 10 minutes faffing about with it. If it's not a Penalty Fare or buy before you board zone, then the fella is pretty much in the clear even though he is blatantly trying it on.

Probably the best solution here would be for a RPI to board the train and observe the gent for a few days, and then to present himself and have a chat, issuing a warning. Whilst it would be tricky to actually pursue, a stern word is probably enough to curb this practice I'd think.

 

[route:oxford]

There is a big issue in various settings with the fact that ATMs now normally only dispense £20 and £10 notes. My other half now takes twice as much float with her when selling at craft fairs than she did 10 years ago - we reckon that for a big event we need up to £100. Scotrail's £40 float seems rather niggardly, though not as bad as one of our local bus drivers who told me he was sent out with £10 of change!

With the exception of a small number of ATMs around student areas, RBS, BOS and Clydesdale all converted their machines to issue 10s & 20s only in Scotland in around 1989. It increased the capacity of the popular 3624 series IBM terminal from £30,000 to either £40,000 or £60,000 depending on whether 20s were issued and ensured that there was still cash in the machine on a Sunday morning for the Kirk collection plate.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Interesting that people are asking why the guard can't change a £20 note, but how many here know the number of £20 notes the guard has already changed on the journey each day?

If the guard regularly changes two or three from different people for small amounts each day, then the float could already be very short.

 

[radamfi]

Is a guard allowed to use his own money for a float?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Is a guard allowed to use his own money for a float?

Don't see why not, as long as all the company's money is accounted for and kept separate, although there might be some hidden rules that I'm unaware of!

 

[island]

Legal tender in England and Wales must be the exact amount to be legal, but in Scotland there is a requirement to accept any reasonable tender, so the question turns to whether £20 is a reasonable tender for a £4.30 fare, and I don't think there's any maintainable argument that it is not. No banknotes are legal tender in Scotland, in any case.

 

[stut]

Out of interest, would you be obliged to provide your details (which I'm assuming are needed) for a UFN in these circumstances? Boarding at an unmanned station with £20 in cash (given that's all that plenty cash machines seem to have) is hardy unreasonable.

 

[CarterUSM]

Is a guard allowed to use his own money for a float?

There's no obligation to take a float from the company, and many don't. I use my own money.

 

[46100ROYALSCOT]

Right, I've noticed a guy, every morning, trying to pay a small fare with a £20 note. I always hear the examiner say "I can't change that! You'll need to buy one at the station" and walks off. Thing is, is that he gets off at Yoker, which has no ticket selling facilities. He does it everyday. Clockwork and with different examiners.

Is this a common scam throughout the railways? Thanks!

Surely its up to the Guard / ticket collector and not the passenger to report the customer for allegedly not paying. If the guy does this everyday then there cant be that many different guards on this particular working and they must have noticed this so called scam going on. We are led to believe that there are over 2million unemployed in the UK, if Scot rail don't want to employ a few more at Station ticket offices then that's their silly fault. good luck to the guy.

 

[34D]

20 pence is maximum you can legally pay in copper, £5 in 5/10p £10 in 20p/50p and £20 in £1 coins.

Back to topic could the guards not be able to issue a credit note like they do on buses that you have to go to a manned station to exchange for cash?

I see this section of the forum as campaigning for the rights of wronged/aggrieved passengers. Do we really think it is reasonable that a passenger (who by the sounds of it, boards and alights at unstaffed stations) is expected to collect these £15.80 change vouchers and once a week go to Glasgow Queen Street to collect his £75?

Yes he could have a season - but I'd think "sods law says if I buy a season I'll be ill on tuesday morning".

I know quite a few blokes who give their change to the wife, and just take £20 out of the machine each day.

You people that think this amounts to intent to avoid a fare and that the man deserves to be observed by BT or an RPI are in cloud cuckoo land. Shame to the original poster for even mentioning the issue.

Dare I ask what happens on the return journey?

 

[Deerfold]

Some TOCs don't help themselves.

I was reminded the other day that Northern, when you do find one that takes cash don't take 20s!

The annoying thing is that they don't show you the picture of what they take until you've chosen your ticket and pressed to pay by cash. I had to put my £20 away and search through my pockets for a £10 and enough shrapnel to make up the exact cost of my ticket.


Do Scotrail's machines take £20s? If not it'd be even harder to take this chap to task, even if there are machines at his boarding station.

On the other hand I'm pleased that I've located a cash machine that gives out £5s in Keighley - apart from some special ones in London which ONLY give out £5s it's the first I've come across for years.

 

[moonrakerz]

1. As has already been pointed out if the train crew haven't twigged by now they need sacking !
2. The term "legal tender" is meaningless in this case, it only applies to paying a debt. Anyone can refuse any sum of money in any form in a "normal" day to day transaction..
3. 2 above is often used to refuse to accept £50 notes as they are the most commonly forged item of currency.

 

[Bungle73]

1. As has already been pointed out if the train crew haven't twigged by now they need sacking !
2. The term "legal tender" is meaningless in this case, it only applies to paying a debt. Anyone can refuse any sum of money in any form in a "normal" day to day transaction..
3. 2 above is often used to refuse to accept £50 notes as they are the most commonly forged item of currency.

Surely since the passenger is already on the train it has become a debt, in that he owes the TOC money?

And if the relevant railway staff don't have the correct change for a £20 note that's hardly the passnger's fault. Since, as far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the NRCoC requiring passengers to have the correct change for their fare I don't see how he's done anything wrong.

 

[class156]

Nothing to stop Scotrail providing a lockable cash box in the cab.

If the passenger is asking for a ticket to an unmanned station, then surely the guard should issue a UPFN?

Servicies on the line that the OP is describing are DOO with a ticket examiner. As far as i'm aware they're only duties are to check and issue tickets and I don't think they are able to issue UPFNs.

 

[moonrakerz]

Surely since the passenger is already on the train it has become a debt, in that he owes the TOC money?

The "debt" has to have been pursued through a Court.

 

[route:oxford]

3. 2 above is often used to refuse to accept £50 notes as they are the most commonly forged item of currency.

£1 coins are the most commonly forged item in the UK...

I take it you'd happily accept a £100 note over a £50 note then.

 

[34D]

£1 coins are the most commonly forged item in the UK...

I take it you'd happily accept a £100 note over a £50 note then.

Do we have £100 notes? Anyone seen one of the new £50s yet (supposedly harder to forge)?

 

[CarterUSM]

Servicies on the line that the OP is describing are DOO with a ticket examiner. As far as i'm aware they're only duties are to check and issue tickets and I don't think they are able to issue UPFNs.

Ticket Irregularity reports are all that are used by revenue staff within ScotRail, including guards.

 

[route:oxford]

Do we have £100 notes? Anyone seen one of the new £50s yet (supposedly harder to forge)?

Erm, I wouldn't have suggested it if we didn't...

Current series have either Balmoral Castle, Heart of Neolithic Orkney or The Kessock Bridge on the reverse.

You can compare them here...

http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/media/scottish_banknotes_poster_2009.pdf

 

[AlterEgo]

Erm, I wouldn't have suggested it if we didn't...

Current series have either Balmoral Castle, Heart of Neolithic Orkney or The Kessock Bridge on the reverse.

Those are Scottish notes of course, for clarity. BoE denominations stop at £50 as we know.

RBS still issue £1 notes, do they not? Little green things.

 

[route:oxford]

Those are Scottish notes of course, for clarity. BoE denominations stop at £50 as we know.

RBS still issue £1 notes, do they not? Little green things.

Well, it is a Scottish thread, so you'd expect the discussion to deal with the local currency notes and laws...

Image of the £1 note is on the bottom right of the link I posted.

 

[Scotrail84]

Is a guard allowed to use his own money for a float?

There's no obligation to take a float from the company, and many don't. I use my own money.

Me too I was never issued a float.

 

[southerner2174]

Take his £20 and issue him with a short change voucher from the advantix, a few days of having to go to the ticket office for his change may well solve his reluctance in the first place

 

[ChrisCooper]

I thought the problem with £50 notes wasn't their ability to forge but that people were unfamiliar with them and therefore would less likely spot a forgery. I think I've held a £50 twice in my life (neither time mine sadly). I think it's the same with £1 notes in England, again people don't see them much so wouldn't spot a fake as easily, possibly combined with the fact that being low value people wouldn't check them as carefully anyway (especially if given a few together). Another problem with £1 notes is that the English tend to mistake them for £5s. I know at least 2 people who have given change for £5 when handed a £1 note, one having done it a few times before someone pointed out his error.

 

[scrapy]

Is a guard allowed to use his own money for a float?

I'm pretty sure this would be forbidden under cash regulations. It certainly is in at least 2 TOCs I know of. One of which is First operated.

I've never known of any disciplinary action taken for doing this but breaching cash regulations is potentially a sackable offence.

 

[jopsuk]

Indeed. Almost nobody ever pays "legal tender" for anything. It's a very specific term.

 

[island]

2. The term "legal tender" is meaningless in this case, it only applies to paying a debt. Anyone can refuse any sum of money in any form in a "normal" day to day transaction..
3. 2 above is often used to refuse to accept £50 notes as they are the most commonly forged item of currency.

The above points are correct in England and Wales, but are not correct in Scotland.
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I know quite a few blokes who give their change to the wife, and just take £20 out of the machine each day.

Could they not pay with their debit card on the train then?