Is there demand for more sleeper services?

[Energy]

Good point. Could consolidate the wales and plymouth maintenance needs into one in or around the Bristol area. Is that any better?

Maybe but there is no Alstom maintenance depots in that area, closest one is London, so either Hitachi or GWR would maintain (not preferable as it would likely require 2 companies (Alstom + Hitachi/GWR) to do the maintanence on the same fleet but not impossible) or new depot for just the mk5s which would be expensive. Alstom do have places in the south west (Swindon, closer but not that close) and Wales (Newport) but these are for signalling.

 

[SussexLad]

...and by providing VSOE luxury, which hardly makes it an everyday product!

I agree with you. I think taking it to that point is a "bit" too far. The VSOE is a luxury product aimed at high spenders. Not a premium product aimed at business persons.

 

[Journeyman]

Indeed. VSOE isn't principally a public transport service, it's a luxury experience that happens to take you from one place to another, in the same way that a preserved railway is a tourist attraction rather than public transport.

Of course - and that's the point. There's a market for that - it's small, but big enough. The market for overnight business travel between Plymouth and Glasgow is microscopic.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

What are you on about? I thought we were looking at this operation in isolation so carriages would be fixed costs as they don't increase with longer distance journeys. Maintenance does slightly.

You can get around train crew problems by switching crews at the split and join points. Therefore returning them to their home in the morning. All could be done with clever scheduling.

Further, this arrangement is to reduce the amount of locomotives compared to the calidonian sleeper.

The only fixed cost re the carriages is the leasing cost, maintenance is hours and mileage based, frequency dictated largely by how many miles your sleeper operation undertakes and how many hours the stock is running. That's highly variable depending on how many services you run, how many vehicles each service has and what route(s) your services take.

I'll be interested to see your crewing arrangements and how all that meets health and safety based rest periods, drivers hours requirements and such. I'll also be interested to see if your portion working fits around existing paths and what other services, if any, are going to be withdrawn to make this all work.

If you're working various portions, how do you manage with fewer locomotives per service ?

Just admit it Patrick, you've had an idea, reality means it won't work, but at least it has been discussed.

 

[Journeyman]

I agree with you. I think taking it to that point is a "bit" too far. The VSOE is a luxury product aimed at high spenders. Not a premium product aimed at business persons.

...for which there is no demand.

 

[SussexLad]

How do you plan on fitting those in the UK loading gauge?

Come on its not literal. I'm talking about that kind of product. That kind of design. High quality furnishings that actually work.

 

[Starmill]

Just admit it Patrick, you've had an idea, reality means it won't work, but at least it has been discussed.

There's certainly no shame in that, or indeed in this section, any problems with the fact that it may not be physically possible!

 

[Journeyman]

Come on its not literal. I'm talking about that kind of product. That kind of design. High quality furnishings that actually work.

So you're planning a tiny bespoke fleet. Good grief, this gets dafter by the minute. Design costs will run into millions before you even think about building them.

 

[Energy]

Come on its not literal. I'm talking about that kind of product. That kind of design. High quality furnishings that actually work.

The UK loading gauge is pretty restrictive for sleepers, wouldn't be surprised is quite a lot of the interior would have to be redesigned so it would fit in the UK.

 

[SussexLad]

The only fixed cost re the carriages is the leasing cost, maintenance is hours and mileage based, frequency dictated largely by how many miles your sleeper operation undertakes and how many hours the stock is running. That's highly variable depending on how many services you run, how many vehicles each service has and what route(s) your services take.

I'll be interested to see your crewing arrangements and how all that meets health and safety based rest periods, drivers hours requirements and such. I'll also be interested to see if your portion working fits around existing paths and what other services, if any, are going to be withdrawn to make this all work.

If you're working various portions, how do you manage with fewer locomotives per service ?

Just admit it Patrick, you've had an idea, reality means it won't work, but at least it has been discussed.

Because one train leaves Plymouth. Splits into 2 at say Wolverhampton or Crewe. The wales service does the same. Then the 2 edinbrugh sections join up to form one train. The 2 glasgow sections join to form another train. So effectively 4 trains requires 2 locos.

 

[Energy]

So you're planning a tiny bespoke fleet. Good grief, this gets dafter by the minute. Design costs will run into millions before you even think about building them.

If anyone will build them, only CAF bid for the mk5s and that was because they had excess capacity at one of their spanish plants.

 

[Journeyman]

If anyone will build them, only CAF bid for the mk5s and that was because they had excess capacity at one of their spanish plants.

Much of the basic design of the Mark 5 had been done already as well, as part of a plan to offer a range of vehicle types to UK operators. For anything loco-hauled, it's the only game in town.

 

[JonathanH]

How people travel might change due to climate change which a sleeper can capitalise on.

Yes, they are more likely not to travel.

Because one train leaves Plymouth. Splits into 2 at say Wolverhampton or Crewe. The wales service does the same. Then the 2 edinbrugh sections join up to form one train. The 2 glasgow sections join to form another train. So effectively 4 trains requires 2 locos.

Plus all the shunting. You would need more locomotives for that as well that have no other work during the day, not to mention that the track layout isn't set up for shunting at either location.

 

[SussexLad]

The UK loading gauge is pretty restrictive for sleepers, wouldn't be surprised is quite a lot of the interior would have to be redesigned so it would fit in the UK.

I think it poorly. I mean that kind of interior design. Using a mk5. Redesign is fine and I'd expect it but it is a one off cost. If done properly (I e not the cal sleeper), you cna give it a look and feel of a very premium product. Can't stress enough that the basics need to be right!

 

[SussexLad]

Yes, they are more likely not to travel.

Plus all the shunting. You would need more locomotives for that as well that have no other work during the day, not to mention that the track layout isn't set up for shunting at either location.

We discussed the use of DVTs earlier in the threat. Suggest you read it. The locations are just suggestions

 

[JonathanH]

I think it poorly. I mean that kind of interior design. Using a mk5. Redesign is fine and I'd expect it but it is a one off cost. If done properly (I e not the cal sleeper), you cna give it a look and feel of a very premium product. Can't stress enough that the basics need to be right!

Surely Caledonian Sleeper set out to provide the look and feel of a premium product.

Where did they fall down that someone else could do better for broadly the same outlay. How many journeys have you made on the Caledonian Sleeper since the introduction of Mark 5s?

 

[JonathanH]

We discussed the use of DVTs earlier in the thread. Suggest you read it. The locations are just suggestions

Yes, I recall mention of driving trailers - they add to the cost of the rolling stock and reduce capacity. They aren't a nirvana in sleeper operation. You still have to couple up the sections and do some platform shunting in one direction - the operation at Carstairs is somewhat simpler in one direction than the other.

 

[Energy]

Because one train leaves Plymouth. Splits into 2 at say Wolverhampton or Crewe. The wales service does the same. Then the 2 edinbrugh sections join up to form one train. The 2 glasgow sections join to form another train. So effectively 4 trains requires 2 locos.

Is this what you mean?

 

[SussexLad]

Surely Caledonian Sleeper set out to provide the look and feel of a premium product.

Where did they fall down that someone else could do better for broadly the same outlay. How many journeys have you made on the Caledonian Sleeper since the introduction of Mark 5s?

I have done one. The train was late in for some reason so I was stood in booring old Euston and silly o'clock for longer than I needed too. The water pressure was rubbish on the train. The air con was bad. I didn't think the mattress was that comfy, felt cheap to me.

 

[SussexLad]

Is this what you mean?
View attachment 82049

Yep! Something like that. Split and join point can change based on whats easiest. I like the sound of crewe or Wolverhampton personally.

 

[Energy]

Yep! Something like that. Split and join point can change based on whats easiest. I like the sound of crewe or Wolverhampton personally.

If demand is there (which it isn't to be honest) then I would suggest some sleeper class 805s (Avanti's 5 car bimodes) for easy splitting and joining and Avanti's are getting jointly maintained by Hitachi and Alstom.

 

[Journeyman]

If demand is there (which it isn't to be honest) then I would suggest some sleeper class 805s (Avanti's 5 car bimodes) for easy splitting and joining and Avanti's are getting jointly maintained by Hitachi and Alstom.

They may not be structurally suitable for sleeper use. I'd be very surprised if they were.

 

[Energy]

They may not be structurally suitable for sleeper use. I'd be very surprised if they were.

I think they could fit berths but en suites wouldn't be possible.

 

[Journeyman]

I think they could fit berths but en suites wouldn't be possible.

But you'd likely need different window arrangements, and the fire regulations for sleepers are very strict, so compartment partitions have to be pretty solid. This requires things like completely different aircon arrangements, and at the very least, you'd need to provide for sinks. If you look at a Mark 3 sleeper and a Mark 3 day coach, they're only superficially similar. Structure-wise, they're very different.

 

[SussexLad]

I think they could fit berths but en suites wouldn't be possible.

If sinks could fit into a cupboard or something that would make peoples journey a lot smoother. Only visiting shared toilets for a shower or the loo. Not ideal tho. Would prefer to have a three or four tier system:
Seated
Economy sleeper (open births with privacy curtains for each bunk and a personal storage place. (Aimed at the leisure market).
Private cabins en suite (aimed at business travelers or wealthy tourists. One person cabin or bunk bed. en suite).
Double private cabin en suite (a double bed with a fold out extra bunk on top if desired. Complete with en suite. Aimed at wealthy tourists, business executives and families. Also used as an upgrade perk when operations allow to reward frequent travelers )

 

[The Planner]

Is this what you mean?
View attachment 82050

The reliability of that would have to be bang on. If one is late you are in a world of pain.

#10000

 

[Journeyman]

If sinks could fit into a cupboard or something that would make peoples journey a lot smoother. Only visiting shared toilets for a shower or the loo. Not ideal tho. Would prefer to have a three or four tier system:
Seated
Economy sleeper (open births with privacy curtains for each bunk and a personal storage place. (Aimed at the leisure market).
Private cabins en suite (aimed at business travelers or wealthy tourists. One person cabin or bunk bed. en suite).
Double private cabin en suite (a double bed with a fold out extra bunk on top if desired. Complete with en suite. Aimed at wealthy tourists, business executives and families. Also used as an upgrade perk when operations allow to reward frequent travelers )

Question: do you work in the railway industry?

 

[SussexLad]

But you'd likely need different window arrangements, and the fire regulations for sleepers are very strict, so compartment partitions have to be pretty solid. This requires things like completely different aircon arrangements, and at the very least, you'd need to provide for sinks. If you look at a Mark 3 sleeper and a Mark 3 day coach, they're only superficially similar. Structure-wise, they're very different.

Makes sense I guess. Didn't notice a difference tho

 

[SussexLad]

The reliability of that would have to be bang on. If one is late you are in a world of pain.

#10000

True. Or with the extra time you gain by leaving early you add a bit of float. By a bit I mean half an hour more than you need so it might slot into the same path half an hour later.

Question: do you work in the railway industry?

Nope. I travel a lot for business so now what a business person wants. Well, did, before covid.

 

[Journeyman]

Nope.

Didn't think so. A lot of us here do.