Is there demand for more sleeper services?

[Bletchleyite]

3-berth compartments are impossible in the UK loading gauge, and the previous Standard class berth offer, which made it highly likely you'd share with a stranger if travelling alone, was hugely unpopular and losing the company business. This is why it was axed some time ago - GWR got rid of it even earlier. Unfortunately the proposed budget berth option - the pod idea - wasn't technically viable.

The main problem with that was the per-person supplement thing and it being awkward to get a single berth. The train should be single-class, with supplements simply based on a room price (and you can ask to have the top bunk folded or not). Having "First Class" just makes the pricing model cumbersome. Or even easier, if everything else was single-fare priced you could have dedicated fares only with a more hotel like pricing model.

 

[gingerheid]

I love the sleeper, but I still have to admit that it's a relic of a bygone era that's in irreversible decline and that was very lucky to be lent some extra time.

Further, I try hard to justify using it but don't always manage. Not just planes and buses but also day trains offer strong competition.

There's a choice of trains leaving London in the early evening that allow almost or actually a full working day, and while some of them might get into Glasgow a bit late for onward journeys otherwise than by taxi, and might disrupt your normal sleeping time a little, compared to the cost and disruption of the sleeper (and indeed hanging around London waiting for it) it usually ends up being finely balanced. Further, these journeys are likely only a 30m speeding up away from being a completely viable alternative, and that's about what HS2 is likely to offer.

I suspect that the new stock saved not only the Highlander, which may have a long term future, but also the Night Riviera that will be operated by Mk5s once HS2 kills the Lowlander.

It may be sad, but new sleeper routes would have had to have involved routes to parts of Europe that E* trains wouldn't have the technical ability to serve and us being part of Schengen, so they're not happening

 

[Starmill]

It would be better to abolish the West Highland Sleeper, and cut the West Country one back to three months in Summer and use the operating subsidy on some more local trains in the daytime, on Sundays, or on a trial new service. Or spend it tendering dedicated bus services to connect with long distance trains.

Sleepers are simply too expensive - and air travel is simply too cheap. Both have been the case for years. No more than trivial numbers of people will cease flying for £40 and start paying £200 sleeper train fares, for a far worse service, out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be better to abolish the West Highland Sleeper, and cut the West Country one back to three months in Summer and use the operating subsidy on some more local trains in the daytime, on Sundays, or on a trial new service. Or spend it tendering dedicated bus services to connect with long distance trains.

You're in the 90s there. Of the Highlander portions, it's the Aberdeen that's the least busy and so would be the target of any simplification.

 

[Bald Rick]

The caledonian sleeper is full of inefficiencies tho. Locos sitting around to wait for the train. Meaning you have to maintain more and pay for more. Also, because the calidonian sleeper only picks up or sets down at a station, not both, they get limited revenue from the standard revenue pot. Which you clearly haven't considered as you suggest raising intern scotland ticket prices which don't exist!

On the calidonian sleeper you can get cheap seats from £140. That realistically should be at least £200. Also why don't we have 3 berth sleepers for those that want cheap seats and make them share?



Yes it a very abstract thought but I firmly believe its viable. The only thing that is concerning to me is how do you make it comfortable and quiet enough for business travelers to get a good night's sleep.

How would you make Caledonian Sleeper more efficient? Give the Serco Rail MD a call, I’m sure he would be delighted to find out. I’d give you his number but I’m not sure he’d thank me.

The Highland sleepers both have internal Scotland traffic in the seats. These travellers are also subsidised (on average) by £170 each (accepting that averages aren’t very helpful here)

You can get seats London - Scotland on the sleepers for less than £50, as they are competing with road coaches, day trains and Easyjet, and need a price differential to the beds. At £200 no one would use them.

The way almost all business travellers travelling between London and Scotland get a good nights sleep is by staying in their own bed or using a hotel, and flying or using the day train. Whilst some business travellers use the sleeper, it’s not many (it’s mostly tourists), and I bet that not many get a good nights sleep. I certainly don’t.

 

[37424]

How would you make Caledonian Sleeper more efficient? Give the Serco Rail MD a call, I’m sure he would be delighted to find out. I’d give you his number but I’m not sure he’d thank me.

The Highland sleepers both have internal Scotland traffic in the seats. These travellers are also subsidised (on average) by £170 each (accepting that averages aren’t very helpful here)

You can get seats London - Scotland on the sleepers for less than £50, as they are competing with road coaches, day trains and Easyjet, and need a price differential to the beds. At £200 no one would use them.

The way almost all business travellers travelling between London and Scotland get a good nights sleep is by staying in their own bed or using a hotel, and flying or using the day train. Whilst some business travellers use the sleeper, it’s not many (it’s mostly tourists), and I bet that not many get a good nights sleep. I certainly don’t.

Indeed If I was traveling from Inverness then maybe I might use the sleeper, but from Edinburgh and Glasgow, I would catch a late afternoon train and stay in a Hotel, I think the lowlander has marginal justification as it is and HS2 will likely kill it.

 

[Journeyman]

The main problem with that was the per-person supplement thing and it being awkward to get a single berth. The train should be single-class, with supplements simply based on a room price (and you can ask to have the top bunk folded or not). Having "First Class" just makes the pricing model cumbersome. Or even easier, if everything else was single-fare priced you could have dedicated fares only with a more hotel like pricing model.

The pricing model is now on a per-room basis, so it's much cheaper if two of you are travelling, and the standard/first distinction is now whether you have an en-suite room or not.

 

[Journeyman]

Indeed If I was traveling from Inverness then maybe I might use the sleeper, but from Edinburgh and Glasgow, I would catch a late afternoon train and stay in a Hotel, I think the lowlander has marginal justification as it is and HS2 will likely kill it.

The Lowlander carries quite a lot of business traffic, or at least it did - I've a feeling the drastic changes in the world of work brought about by COVID might be its downfall.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Lowlander carries quite a lot of business traffic, or at least it did - I've a feeling the drastic changes in the world of work brought about by COVID might be its downfall.

I used it twice last year in June and September, both midweek when you would expect business travel to be higher than Thursday / Friday. Purely from observation, and making very generic assumptions on who looks like a ‘business traveller’, I’d say 80% were leisure travellers, and around half of those were foreign tourists.

 

[43096]

Yes it a very abstract thought but I firmly believe its viable. The only thing that is concerning to me is how do you make it comfortable and quiet enough for business travelers to get a good night's sleep.

If you believe it is viable, go and set up a business, get some funding and run services.

Do come back and tell us how you get on.

 

[Tobbes]

I love the idea of the CS, and I used it quite frequently when there were Bargain Berths or when I was travelling with work to Leuchars-for-St As. But as I look for some leave in the next month or so, Euston-FW rtn on Monday nights is £460/rtn. Which is simply (much) more than I'm prepared to pay as a lesiure traveller - two nights' accomodation and day trains will be rather less than this.

I get the argument that for the Highlands to London business traveller the sleeper makes sense, and similarly for the SW. The Lowlander must be pretty marginal as a business case now - though I get the attraction of a dinner/socialising and then early morning arrival in time for a full day in the office, HS2 acceleration of day services (presumably including a 2030 departure to get in just after midnight) will cut this demand further.

So, proponents of more sleepers - as @43096 says, raise the capital and run unsubsidised new sleepers, and good luck to you - I'd love to see you succeed.

 

[CW2]

If it were not for the fact of separate franchises, you could make the Scottish sleepers more efficient by adding (more) seating accommodation to / from Edinburgh, then use the locos and stock to run internal Scottish services during the daytime. For example your 73s could run Inverness - Aberdeen and return (or vice versa), or Fort William - Mallaig and return. That could save on DMU / HST mileage.

 

[JonathanH]

The Lowlander must be pretty marginal as a business case now - though I get the attraction of a dinner/socialising and then early morning arrival in time for a full day in the office

I don't know why people always say that. It (at least the Edinburgh portion), in my experience, seems to load just as well, if not better than the Highland sleepers. I appreciate that both operations need subsidy. Are you trying to make the point that the subsidy is less justified for the lowland sleeper?

 

[JonathanH]

If it were not for the fact of separate franchises, you could make the Scottish sleepers more efficient by adding (more) seating accommodation to / from Edinburgh, then use the locos and stock to run internal Scottish services during the daytime. For example your 73s could run Inverness - Aberdeen and return (or vice versa), or Fort William - Mallaig and return. That could save on DMU / HST mileage.

You couldn't. If that was the case, it would have been done before. What DMU / HST mileage is going to be saved? The detached coaches wouldn't be available at the times needed for the internal Scottish services.

Solution looking for a problem I think. The Fort William sleeper nicely integrates with the traffic on the Mallaig line already.

 

[Tobbes]

I don't know why people always say that. It (at least the Edinburgh portion), in my experience, seems to load just as well, if not better than the Highland sleepers. I appreciate that both operations need subsidy. Are you trying to make the point that the subsidy is less justified for the lowland sleeper?

The reason I say that is that when HS2 Ph 1 & 2a opens, a 2100 dep from Euston will arrive in Edinburgh at 0040, and it is hard for me to see that enough of a market exists for a train that leaves London at 2330 (or vice versa) to arrive after a short night's sleep. With enough subsidy you can do anything, of course.

 

[37424]

I don't know why people always say that. It (at least the Edinburgh portion), in my experience, seems to load just as well, if not better than the Highland sleepers. I appreciate that both operations need subsidy. Are you trying to make the point that the subsidy is less justified for the lowland sleeper?

That is the point I was making not whether its well loaded

 

[CW2]

You couldn't. If that was the case, it would have been done before. What DMU / HST mileage is going to be saved? The detached coaches wouldn't be available at the times needed for the internal Scottish services.

Solution looking for a problem I think. The Fort William sleeper nicely integrates with the traffic on the Mallaig line already.

It hasn't been done before because the franchises are separate, so they have different aims.
You could have a pair of 73s on daytime stock doing Aberdeen - Inverness and return, or Aberdeen - Edinburgh and return, for example. That would (theoretically) free up an HST or DMU for other work. Without the base timetable and diagrams I can't quote specific times and paths, but the possibility exists. As it is, the 73s sit unused all day, so they are a wasted resource in that respect.

 

[CBlue]

It hasn't been done before because the franchises are separate, so they have different aims.
You could have a pair of 73s on daytime stock doing Aberdeen - Inverness and return, or Aberdeen - Edinburgh and return, for example. That would (theoretically) free up an HST or DMU for other work. Without the base timetable and diagrams I can't quote specific times and paths, but the possibility exists. As it is, the 73s sit unused all day, so they are a wasted resource in that respect.

Wasn't that long ago the sleeper was part of Scotrail's portfolio and they didn't do it either!

Far more effort to do so than it's worth.

 

[RT4038]

It hasn't been done before because the franchises are separate, so they have different aims.
You could have a pair of 73s on daytime stock doing Aberdeen - Inverness and return, or Aberdeen - Edinburgh and return, for example. That would (theoretically) free up an HST or DMU for other work. Without the base timetable and diagrams I can't quote specific times and paths, but the possibility exists. As it is, the 73s sit unused all day, so they are a wasted resource in that respect.

I guess that the hassle of acquiring and maintaining additional daytime stock, coupled with the likelihood that a complete DMU or HST diagram would not be saved, probably kills this idea. (Bearing in mind that the arrival of the sleeper is not ever so reliable, so a long buffer would be required - I doubt any weekday diagram starts after 11am and is completed by about 1830hr? - plus the shunting.) Sounds like an idea from a bygone age!

 

[Tobbes]

It hasn't been done before because the franchises are separate, so they have different aims.
You could have a pair of 73s on daytime stock doing Aberdeen - Inverness and return, or Aberdeen - Edinburgh and return, for example. That would (theoretically) free up an HST or DMU for other work. Without the base timetable and diagrams I can't quote specific times and paths, but the possibility exists. As it is, the 73s sit unused all day, so they are a wasted resource in that respect.

A nice idea, but presumably it worked when all of the services on eg WHL were LHCS in the hands of 37s, this was just another 37 turn. Now you're talking about a distinct rake of day coaches for 1100-1830 that then can't be used by anything else. Sadly, can't see it.

 

[SussexLad]

Not to mention maintenance would pose a problem if you tried to use them in the day. Emergency use is ok I think but regular services is a non starter. Emergency hire to other TOCs would probably be more profitable than trying to find a service to shove it onto just for the sake of it.

The best way for a sleeper to maximise efficiency of the loco's is to make sure they structure the services so that they all go from one train straight to another. Not doing this means the logistics become harder and more stock needed, hence less efficient. Hence why I think the Caledonian sleeper is inefficient, because they leave locos hanging around for ages in the night which is their peak time for usage.

 

[Energy]

he best way for a sleeper to maximise efficiency of the loco's is to make sure they structure the services so that they all go from one train straight to another. Not doing this means the logistics become harder and more stock needed, hence less efficient. Hence why I think the Caledonian sleeper is inefficient, because they leave locos hanging around for ages in the night which is their peak time for usage.

I don't think that is really an option for Caledonian Sleeper, they do have to leave their locomotives hanging around a lot due to their services only running a couple times a day and loco swaps being required for highland services. Even if they managed to save 1 or 2 locos that wouldn't make the service profitable, the Scottish government seem to pay for it to look good politically but also because it provides connections to the highlands.

 

[xotGD]

Not to mention maintenance would pose a problem if you tried to use them in the day. Emergency use is ok I think but regular services is a non starter. Emergency hire to other TOCs would probably be more profitable than trying to find a service to shove it onto just for the sake of it.

The best way for a sleeper to maximise efficiency of the loco's is to make sure they structure the services so that they all go from one train straight to another. Not doing this means the logistics become harder and more stock needed, hence less efficient. Hence why I think the Caledonian sleeper is inefficient, because they leave locos hanging around for ages in the night which is their peak time for usage.

The ECS locos and Edinburgh portion loco have extremely poor utilisation. Finding something else for them to do for the remaining 23 hours of each day would be beneficial. But what?

 

[CW2]

The ECS locos and Edinburgh portion loco have extremely poor utilisation. Finding something else for them to do for the remaining 23 hours of each day would be beneficial. But what?

Maybe they missed a trick when designing the Mk5 coaches? If they included a cab at one end they could have propelled in the ECS, saving about 3 locos in total.

 

[popeter45]

The ECS locos and Edinburgh portion loco have extremely poor utilisation. Finding something else for them to do for the remaining 23 hours of each day would be beneficial. But what?

To reduce need for ECS locos I would have thought getting control cars like the Mark 5A's have instead of the BSO cars the did order
The night Rivera could make use of one of GA's DVT's for a similar job

 

[Energy]

To reduce need for ECS locos I would have thought getting control cars like the Mark 5A's have instead of the BSO cars the did order
The night Rivera could make use of one of GA's DVT's for a similar job

Maybe they missed a trick when designing the Mk5 coaches? If they included a cab at one end they could have propelled in the ECS, saving about 3 locos in total.

I'm guessing it would be possible to have a control car with a gangway on the front which could have worked well.

 

[Energy]

The ECS locos and Edinburgh portion loco have extremely poor utilisation. Finding something else for them to do for the remaining 23 hours of each day would be beneficial. But what?

Not much, there aren't many of the locos so it isn't that beneficial to Scotrail to use them as it is such a tiny fleet.

 

[popeter45]

I'm guessing it would be possible to have a control car with a gangway on the front which could have worked well.

i belive DBSO's had gangways originally
a half cab should be fine as max the cally goes is 80-90mph
i believe the 196's bodyshell is close enough to the mark 5's that you could model a mark 5 DBSO off its cab potentially

 

[si404]

Taking the tax point, the whole point of U.K. Air Passenger duty is that it is recognised that unilaterally levying tax on air fuel would be largely futile as the larger airlines would simply adjust their schedules such that domestic flights follow an international leg and ferry the fuel over.

Germany has an HGV toll system on its roads because international road freight will fill up large tanks in Luxembourg or the countries to the east where fuel tax is lower, and drive right across Germany (or make a round trip into Germany) without needing to fill up in Germany.

 

[Tobbes]

I'm guessing it would be possible to have a control car with a gangway on the front which could have worked well.

Like the Mark 5A Driving Trailers, perchance?