Is there a future for bigger new build steam engines?

[alexl92]

I know that steam new-builds have been discussed before but I was just wondering about some of the larger projects.

For the LMS, the Patriot fills the last obvious gap in terms of preserved express engines. Tornado and the P2 are filling probably the two most obvious gaps for the LNER, whilst there are a few GWR new builds and plans are afoot to un-rebuild a Merchant Navy for the SR. Finally for British Railways, the Clan project (along with 82045 and 77021) will complete the lineup in the Standard classes.

So aside from the W1 4-6-4, are there any more major classes of large steam engines which missed out on preservation and may therefore become candidates to be the subject of a new build project in the future?

And furthermore, is there even an economic case to justify building large express engines (even if it's only one or two out of each 'generation' of new build projects) for the future, rather than medium-sized locos like 82045?

To clarify, I'm excited about any and all new build projects (not that I think all of them will be succesful) but I'm just interested to hear people's thoughts! Cheers.

 

[Cowley]

111 The Great Bear maybe? Or the Turbomotive 6202? There may be others, but who knows which way things could go? You couldn't have predicted what's happening now thirty years ago. I agree it is really exciting at the moment to be able to experience long lost locomotives that we never thought we'd see.
In thirty years time from now we probably will need some new motive power for the preserved railways that are still running. Maybe they all will be. Maybe they won't and there'll be more motive power to go round what's left.

I wasn't being too serious about the above two by the way.

 

[alexl92]

I did think of the Great Bear when I did it but I don't think anyone would seriously want to do it!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

On a practical level, a lot of the "original" steam locomotives are coming to the end of boiler tickets and need major rebuilds. If money is more forthcoming for new builds and they are likely to last longer then they might be a practical solution.

We can debate all day if "enthusiasts" are going to travel to see them, but for most preserved lines it is the general public who provide the main income and they just want to ride on a steam train, regardless of how old or authentic it is.

My dad has always argued in favour of a standard design of small locomotive being used for heritage lines - such as what the 82045 group are now doing - making a good handful.

I guess the only problem is that "original" steam locomotives that might have been re-storable will be put to one side and if storage space becomes a premium, might even end up being scrapped in favour of a new-build.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anything except another version of the Oliver Bulleid 0-6-6-0T SR "Leader" class.....

 

[Cowley]

I wonder what the difference in maintenance costs would be for something like 82045 compared to an equivalent ex Barry loco over a period of say 40 years? The time a lot of private lines have been operating if not more.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I wonder what the difference in maintenance costs would be for something like 82045 compared to an equivalent ex Barry loco over a period of say 40 years? The time a lot of private lines have been operating if not more.

The amount of "new" on some of the locos that have been operating for most of that time, negates the value of building a new loco. New frames, maybe new cyl block, largely renewed boiler, re - tyre, new tender tank.... You're comparing from a very similar starting point, with far less initial outlay. If building a new loco made commercial sense, then that's what would be happening. It's something that excites enthusiasts; if they can raise the cash, great. But that's the limit of it.

 

[edwin_m]

As mentioned, preserved railways will generally want to use a smaller loco that was designed to be most efficient on the types and speeds of train and route that they operate. This is both economic and authentic, and on these relatively undemanding duties the existing large fleet of "genuine" locos will keep them running for many decades.

Many will run a large loco on special occasions aimed at enthusiasts, but that market is unlikely to sustain the huge cost (in money, expertise and time) of a new build.

The place for new build large locos will mainly be the main line steam excursion. The existing main line certified fleet will become more and more difficult to sustain as they get older, have to share the line with faster and more frequent service trains and need to have more and more mandatory safety systems fitted. But this is a fairly small market - at the risk of sounding like the IBM chairman on the demand for computers, I'd say no more than five.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Small railways need small locos, there isn't the market to keep a lot of large locos running. The P2 is going well because the builders have a track (ho ho!) record. Even they essentially plan to operate it alternating with the A1.

The other projects will largely be built eventually, the GWR ones more likely because of standardisation and the Didcot powerhouse, the others are probably more long term.

 

[Bevan Price]

The main gaps in the "preserved steam" category are mainly the small to medium sized category of tender and tank locos -- the types that had mostly disappeared before the preservation movement started on a large scale. Because of "Barry", the GWR is well represented, but the LMSR & LNER (and predecessors) are poorly represented in preservation variety.

However, a problem seems to be that people are more willing to support (finance) building large / prestige locos rather than building locos that would be most useful on heritage railways.

 

[alexl92]

Small railways need small locos, there isn't the market to keep a lot of large locos running. The P2 is going well because the builders have a track (ho ho!) record. Even they essentially plan to operate it alternating with the A1.

The other projects will largely be built eventually, the GWR ones more likely because of standardisation and the Didcot powerhouse, the others are probably more long term.

I think most will succeed - but I can't see the Donny Streamlined P2 project coming off (anyone with sense can see that we don't need two P2s and one is 2/3rds built already) and whilst the 77021 project makes great sense in terms of the size of loco and the gap in the lineup, it seems to have just a handful of people and a relatively low profile - the slow rate of progress may discourage people from investing.

However, a problem seems to be that people are more willing to support (finance) building large / prestige locos rather than building locos that would be most useful on heritage railways.

I've noticed that - it's a shame because some of the smaller locos have the most character.

I'm almost surprised that none of these projects are being built to order by a benefactor. If I was minted and heavily involved in railways a la Hosking/Waterman, I'd love to have a new-built loco produced for me. But maybe that's just me?

 

[co-tr-paul]

Would have to be The Bear... .

 

[sprinterguy]

For the LMS, the Patriot fills the last obvious gap in terms of preserved express engines.

We still don't have a Claughton, which is a new build which I would be interested to see. They shared the same wheel spacings, bogie and driving wheel diameters as the Patriot class, the first two of which were in fact rebuilds of Claughtons, so it would be a logical progression for the team behind "The Unknown Warrior" if they fancied a second project to get their teeth into once they have finished their first, much like the A1SLT moving on to build the P2 after "Tornado".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would have to be The Bear... .

Could we not skip forward a few decades in GWR locomotive design and instead go for the unrealised Hawksworth pacific - The "Cathedral" 8000 class?

An unlikely follow-up project for the 1014 County Project group in the realm of fantasy land, perhaps? A number of the features intended for the "Cathedral" were incorporated into the "County".

 

[Phil.]

Anything except another version of the Oliver Bulleid 0-6-6-0T SR "Leader" class.....

I'll drink to that sentiment.

 

[sprinterguy]

Stepping out of the world of wish lists, practically speaking I am unsure of the viability of such a large loco as the P2. Granted that "Tornado" has been an outstanding success and a new build 2-8-2 will pull in at least as much interest from enthusiasts and the public, perhaps more due to it being a fairly unusual design that has been missing from the world for so long, but surely it's practical applications are limited primarily to the main line: The majority of preserved railways, even the lengthiest, well established ones, are based on former rural branch lines which often weren't designed for the demands placed on them by the regular passage of large Pacific type locos that they now witness, and the biggest locos have far more power than is strictly necessary to chivvy a rake of seven mark 1s up to the grandiose speed of 25mph. Big express passenger locomotives also look incongruous spending half their time running tender first, which is hardly prototypical. I have seen few more ignominious sights in railway preservation than the big blue slab of the tender of a Gresley A4 approaching, with the iconic streamlined wedge nose buried tight against the coaching stock.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful to be able to see high profile express passenger engines working and active on preserved railways, but in terms of new build projects, if the locos are intended to see use on preserved lines then I think that locomotives in the mid-power range are more suitable: The 82045, "Patriot" and "County" projects have all got this right in that respect, in my view. There is certainly a place for new build "big" locomotives as well, and it is great that we now have the A1 and will one day have the P2, too, but I feel that there is limited space in the field for such projects, so it is just as well that we are witnessing such a varied range of new build projects.

 

[Townsend Hook]

With steam locos in preservation they seem to be rebuilt and have parts replaced so that they are like Trigger's broom, where the loco has a nominal build date but all or most significant components have been replaced, so building a complete new build to replace a worn-out loco isn't neccesary.

An interesting scenario is occurring with new builds on the Ffestiniog Railway however: a new Double Fairlie to be named 'James Spooner' is to be built to replace 'Earl of Merioneth', which apparently will be beyond economic repair when it's boiler ticket expires in a year or so. The Earl is itself a new build, completed back in 1979 to replace the previous 'Earl of Merioneth' (formerly Livingston Thompson, now on display at York) which was regarded as life-expired. The FR would seem to be about the only place in the country where new steam locos are built to replace worn out ones, as used to occur before preservation and the 'Trigger's Broom' scenario.

 

[E&W Lucas]

An interesting scenario is occurring with new builds on the Ffestiniog Railway however: a new Double Fairlie to be named 'James Spooner' is to be built to replace 'Earl of Merioneth', which apparently will be beyond economic repair when it's boiler ticket expires in a year or so. The Earl is itself a new build, completed back in 1979 to replace the previous 'Earl of Merioneth' (formerly Livingston Thompson, now on display at York) which was regarded as life-expired. The FR would seem to be about the only place in the country where new steam locos are built to replace worn out ones, as used to occur before preservation and the 'Trigger's Broom' scenario.

But a Fairlie isn't the same as a conventional loco. If I've understood correctly, the power bogies of the existing loco are being reused. The boiler is shot, which just leaves the tanks and cradle (correct expression for a Fairlie?), which they are going to put aside, in case anyone wants to rebuild the 1979 loco. TBH minor components in the context of a rebuild. Presumably injectors, brake equipment, lubricators and other expensive parts will transfer. So same mechanicals, new boiler needed anyway and cosmetically restyled tanks and cab. Politics at play, i expect. my only thought would be that people will have donated money to complete the 1970's loco; many will still be alive and acive supporters. Subsequently dispensing with the result may not be politic, even if it didn't look terribly Victorian. Personally I rather liked it; a child of its time.

 

[edwin_m]

Modern CAD and 3D scanning/printing should soon make it possible to "replicate" existing parts. This should greatly simply production of short-run spares for existing locos, but probably also make it easier to produce entirely new locos as long as they are wholly or partly identical to an existing one.

 

[Townsend Hook]

But a Fairlie isn't the same as a conventional loco. If I've understood correctly, the power bogies of the existing loco are being reused. The boiler is shot, which just leaves the tanks and cradle (correct expression for a Fairlie?), which they are going to put aside, in case anyone wants to rebuild the 1979 loco. TBH minor components in the context of a rebuild. Presumably injectors, brake equipment, lubricators and other expensive parts will transfer. So same mechanicals, new boiler needed anyway and cosmetically restyled tanks and cab. Politics at play, i expect. my only thought would be that people will have donated money to complete the 1970's loco; many will still be alive and acive supporters. Subsequently dispensing with the result may not be politic, even if it didn't look terribly Victorian. Personally I rather liked it; a child of its time.

As I understand it the tanks and cradle are of fairly flimsy construction and will require very major work to be reused. Power bogies on the Fairlies are relatively interchangeable and tend not to be regarded as part of the loco as such. When the Earl was new in 1979 it was on second hand bogies, as did DLG when new in 1992.

 

[Deepgreen]

We still don't have a Claughton, which is a new build which I would be interested to see. They shared the same wheel spacings, bogie and driving wheel diameters as the Patriot class, the first two of which were in fact rebuilds of Claughtons, so it would be a logical progression for the team behind "The Unknown Warrior" if they fancied a second project to get their teeth into once they have finished their first, much like the A1SLT moving on to build the P2 after "Tornado".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could we not skip forward a few decades in GWR locomotive design and instead go for the unrealised Hawksworth pacific - The "Cathedral" 8000 class?

An unlikely follow-up project for the 1014 County Project group in the realm of fantasy land, perhaps? A number of the features intended for the "Cathedral" were incorporated into the "County".

Yes - I like the idea of building unrealised projects as well. However, I fear their expense (designing from almost scratch) and with an ever-more crowded pool of locos, the cost:benefit ratio may be too low (and lowering all the time). A Bulleid 4-8-2 perhaps?!

 

[GWR saint]

Whilst not exactly a new build engine, it would seem to make sense for Didcot to build a couple of spare standard boilers so they could switch them between there different engines requiring the same boiler which would speed up overhauls massively.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Stepping out of the world of wish lists, practically speaking I am unsure of the viability of such a large loco as the P2. Granted that "Tornado" has been an outstanding success and a new build 2-8-2 will pull in at least as much interest from enthusiasts and the public, perhaps more due to it being a fairly unusual design that has been missing from the world for so long, but surely it's practical applications are limited primarily to the main line: The majority of preserved railways, even the lengthiest, well established ones, are based on former rural branch lines which often weren't designed for the demands placed on them by the regular passage of large Pacific type locos that they now witness, and the biggest locos have far more power than is strictly necessary to chivvy a rake of seven mark 1s up to the grandiose speed of 25mph. Big express passenger locomotives also look incongruous spending half their time running tender first, which is hardly prototypical. I have seen few more ignominious sights in railway preservation than the big blue slab of the tender of a Gresley A4 approaching, with the iconic streamlined wedge nose buried tight against the coaching stock.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful to be able to see high profile express passenger engines working and active on preserved railways, but in terms of new build projects, if the locos are intended to see use on preserved lines then I think that locomotives in the mid-power range are more suitable: The 82045, "Patriot" and "County" projects have all got this right in that respect, in my view. There is certainly a place for new build "big" locomotives as well, and it is great that we now have the A1 and will one day have the P2, too, but I feel that there is limited space in the field for such projects, so it is just as well that we are witnessing such a varied range of new build projects.

Excellent post! Sums up my opinion entirely.

 

[AndrewE]

Modern CAD and 3D scanning/printing should soon make it possible to "replicate" existing parts. This should greatly simply production of short-run spares for existing locos, but probably also make it easier to produce entirely new locos as long as they are wholly or partly identical to an existing one.

... if you can get the metallurgy right! Lots of components need the strength of cast steel (at least) and for some bits only forged steel is adequate.

Glasgow's £20m Clyde Arc bridge has reopened, more than five months after it closed for repair work on a snapped support cable.

The so-called "Squinty Bridge", between Finnieston and Pacific Quay, has been closed to traffic since the cable came down on 14 January.

Repair work on the structure was only supposed to take a few weeks.

But after an inspection found a crack in another support, the decision was made to replace each cable connector.
...
The cast steel connector units, which hold the cables in place, were then replaced with milled steel ones and load-tested before erection.

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7477405.stm

which shows an example of the wrong material being used. I suspect that a machined forging would have been lighter and stronger, but maybe they are trying to say that this was their final solution.

 

[thenorthern]

There was an article in The Guardian around 2004 about someone who wanted to build a new steam train for regular National Rail mainline revenue services but I can't remember who it was.

 

[Cowley]

There was an article in The Guardian around 2004 about someone who wanted to build a new steam train for regular National Rail mainline revenue services but I can't remember who it was.

Was that the 5AT project? That's an interesting one, never likely to happen but it would've been interesting to see what could be done if you weren't worried about history and just built a steam locomotive with all the modern technology available.

 

[alexl92]

Has anyone else seen this bonkers K3 project? Someone's planning to try and beat Mallard's record with a streamlined steam loco based on an LNER K3...

 

[MarkyT]

Has anyone else seen this bonkers K3 project? Someone's planning to try and beat Mallard's record with a streamlined steam loco based on an LNER K3...

You mean this one?
http://www.k3steam.com/

I suppose at least it would fit on the St Blazey turntable!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

For most preserved railways 4MTs or equivalent locos will do them for all their motive power needs. A few like the Grand Central can probably justify having one maybe 2 larger locos for normal running

 

[E&W Lucas]

For most preserved railways 4MTs or equivalent locos will do them for all their motive power needs. A few like the Grand Central can probably justify having one maybe 2 larger locos for normal running

The great Central is short and flat. It can manage with a 2MT!

 

[Townsend Hook]

Whilst not exactly a new build engine, it would seem to make sense for Didcot to build a couple of spare standard boilers so they could switch them between there different engines requiring the same boiler which would speed up overhauls massively.

They probably could, but given the vast cost of new boilers, coupled with the fact that Didcot can afford to take it's time with overhauls given how many more locos it has than it needs for traffic purposes, it's probably not worth it.