• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Is there a freight line or something here?

Status
Not open for further replies.

AviationFR

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2022
Messages
45
Location
London
For some reason I like looking at prospective routes if I was to run an OAO. Theres an interesting non-connected bit from the ECML onto the Hull-Leeds line. I'm just wondering whether there is some sort of curve here perhaps for freight or something, as it would surely provide great opportunities, and if not, if anyone lives in the area,
how difficult would it be for them to build one Screenshot 2022-05-04 09.31.10.png
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,126
Location
Wilmslow
OAO - Open Access Operator?
What bit do you precisely mean?
The ECML-Selby line used to be the main ECML until the new diversion line replaced it.
The diagram you've posted is certainly a bit confusing. I can post a more accurate track diagram once I know more precisely where you're looking at.
 
Last edited:

Mcr Warrior

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
17,262
For the avoidance of doubt, what through route opportunity are you looking at creating?

Doncaster (and the South) to Hull via Selby?

P.S. There is already a short chord (not shown on your schematic diagram) from the ECML onto the Selby-Leeds line in the Leeds direction. Think it's known as the 'Hambleton South Curve'.
 

AviationFR

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2022
Messages
45
Location
London
OAO - Open Access Operator?
What bit do you precisely mean?
The ECML-Selby line used to be the main ECML until the new diversion line replaced it.
The diagram you've posted is certainly a bit confusing. I can post a more accurate track diagram once I know more precisely where you're looking at.
Hi- yes I mean Open access operator sorry I'm rushing to type
The bit I'm describing is the route the line between Hull and Leeds takes after Selby. As you can potentially see, the hodgepodge of lines along the ECML crosses over an orange and blue line, which is Northern and TPE. I'm intrigued to see that there isnt anything following that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

For the avoidance of doubt, what through route opportunity are you looking at creating?

Doncaster (and the South) to Hull via Selby?

P.S. There is already a short chord (not shown on your schematic diagram) from the ECML onto the Selby-Leeds line in the Leeds direction. Think it's known as the 'Hambleton South Curve'.
No, I'm thinking more about a service along the ECML which turns and goes along through Garforth, Leeds etc. to Ilkley, without needing to reverse. I know it probably doesn't sound too feasible but I'm just intrigued. Hambleton South Curve sounds like what I mean. What is it currently utilised for?
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,126
Location
Wilmslow
Here's an extract from Railway Track Diagrams 2 Eastern, Fifth Edition, 2020, TRACKmaps. I think it covers the bits you're talking about. Hambleton South curve seems like what you're after. Some ECML workings use it, but it's not electrified, in the early days the HST to Skipton was one for example.
Currently not a lot, all I see is 4M75 17:49 Immingham to Trafford Park for today (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...2-05-04/0000-2359?stp=WVSC&show=all&order=wtt).
 

Attachments

  • Selby.pdf
    449.9 KB · Views: 57
Last edited:

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
16,734
Location
UK
Whilst the ProjectMapping map has only ever been intended to show routes used by regular passenger services, the Adlestrop map gives a good overview of all current and past lines:

1651655727508.png

There is indeed a chord linking the Doncaster-York direct route to the Hull-Leeds line. At one stage there were proposals for one of the London-Leeds services to run this way into Leeds, particularly for those which continue on to Harrogate/Bradford/Skipton and vice versa, to save a reversal at Leeds.

However, this didn't materialise, and the chord is now usually only used by diverted passenger services when the route via Adwick is shut, and by a handful of freight services. Whilst the section of the Hull-Leeds line between Hull and Micklefield isn't particularly busy, the section between Micklefield and Leeds is virtually full to capacity with the combination of non-stop services, stoppers and a few freights. So something would have to give to allow London-Leeds services to regularly run this way.

Whilst it's a nice thought experiment to imagine where you might run open access services, if you want it to be vaguely realistic you have to consider the constraints which the ORR would impose. In the current climate, their position seems to be that anything which abstracts more than a nominal amount of revenue from Treasury/DfT coffers will be rejected. See, for example, their rejection of the proposal for open access services between London and Cardiff last year - despite the fact that the application broadly met the same criteria as successful pre-Covid applications.

The ECML also has a highly competitive open access market, with Hull Trains and Grand Central serving Doncaster and several of the smaller intermediate stations. That's aside from the question of whether there would be any paths available south of Doncaster...
 

AviationFR

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2022
Messages
45
Location
London
Whilst it's a nice thought experiment to imagine where you might run open access services, if you want it to be vaguely realistic you have to consider the constraints which the ORR would impose. In the current climate, their position seems to be that anything which abstracts more than a nominal amount of revenue from Treasury/DfT coffers will be rejected. See, for example, their rejection of the proposal for open access services between London and Cardiff last year - despite the fact that the application broadly met the same criteria as successful pre-Covid applications.

The ECML also has a highly competitive open access market, with Hull Trains and Grand Central serving Doncaster and several of the smaller intermediate stations. That's aside from the question of whether there would be any paths available south of Doncaster...
Obviously I understand this, but youre right in that its fun to imagine. I've developed quite a few routes, with the only potentially profitable runs already being operated, but I still like doing it.
 

nmbenson

Member
Joined
12 Apr 2013
Messages
16
The 0656 LNER Skipton - Leeds - Kings Cross (Saturday only) generally operates via Garfofth and Hambleton South Curve, as do diverted pasenger services when engineering works take place.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top