Is the TransPennine Route Upgrade program upgrading the wrong route ?

[158801]

Much work is being done to upgrade the line between Leeds and Huddersfield (via Dewsbury) as part as the wider TransPennine Route Upgrade. Leeds to Huddersfield via Dewsbury is 17 miles and the journey time is 21 minutes with an intermediate stop in Dewsbury. That's an average speed of 48.5mph. There are seven intermediate stops. Most of the line is currently double track - except for for a short 3 mile section between Ravensthorpe and Heaton Lodge Junction.

My question is: would money have been better spent to upgrade the line from Leeds to Huddersfield via Wakefield Kirkgate ?

Leeds to Huddersfield via Wakefield Kirkgate is 28miles (11 miles further) and would require an average speed of 80mph to maintain the current Leeds to Huddersfield timings. There are five intermediate stops.

Much of the route via Wakefield Kirkgate is painfully slow with most of the line limited to 60mph. There are some really slow sections - Normanton (heading towards Manchester - 30mph), Wakefield Kirkgate (40mph), a poorly designed Horbury Junction (20mph).

A significant proportion of the line via Wakefield Kirkgate is (or was) quadruple track rather giving better scope to segregate fast and slow services.

Despite the Wakefield Kirkgate route having a lower speed it's a much straighter route with long stretches of straight track and wider, sweeping curves.

Most expresses currently stop at Dewsbury (population 64000). These would instead call at Wakefield (population 354000).

The flyover at Ravensthorpe wouldn't be needed as the slow trains/lines would already be at the correct side of of the line.

Moving TPE trains to the Wakefield route frees up capacity on the Dewsbury route allowing more stopping trains on this line.

Upgrading the Wakefield route also benefits TPE's new service - Manchester Piccadilly to York (via Castleford) as this would use the upgraded faster route as far as Altofts Junction.

I'm not an expert (or engineer) but I recklon the 30mph through Normanton could be increased to 100mph by resiting the station and straigtening the track (plenty of spare room to do this)

Horbury Junction, after remodelling could also support (in my amateur view) 100mph. Wakefield Kirkgate could go from 40mph to 60mph.

In general, line speeds would have to be increased by 30% overall but I reckon much higher speeds are attainable

 

[Senex]

You're suggesting reversion to the original route of the Manchester & Leeds Railway which was given up in favour of the Dewsbury line precisely because of that very substantial extra distance. Yes, the M&L and North Midland (from Goose Hill) lines are very well aligned and could be used for very much higher speeds (if some of the mess made in later years were undone), and there were plans more than a century ago, brought up again 50-odd years ago, for fast lines by-passing Normanton station. But there's still the huge penalty of that extra distance.

The Dewsbury line is never going to be truly fast, but the real problem seems to be the classic British one of asking a two-track railway to do too much. The frequent stopping service that the local authorities want of their railway just isn't really compatible with also using it for a quite intensive service of "fast" trains.

 

[Grumpy]

Most expresses currently stop at Dewsbury (population 64000). These would instead call at Wakefield (population 354000).

The population you are quoting for Wakefield is for the whole District Council area i.e. includes other towns such as Pontefract, Castleford, Knottingley etc. Dewsbury falls within the Kirklees District council area and the figures quoted are not comparable. A comparable figure for Wakefield itself would be approx 110000

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The population you are quoting for Wakefield is for the whole District Council area i.e. includes other towns such as Pontefract, Castleford, Knottingley etc. Dewsbury falls within the Kirklees District council area and the figures quoted are not comparable. A comparable figure for Wakefield itself would be approx 110000

Not to mention that residents in parts of Wakefield District (Ossett for example) would be more likely to use Dewsbury station than either of the Wakefield ones, unless they were going to London.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

in one word NO

 

[GRALISTAIR]

And anyway, this route can always be upgraded at a later date anyway.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And anyway, this route can always be upgraded at a later date anyway.

Although, as a secondary route, it might be electrified but not otherwise upgraded - no 4-tracking or realignments.
L&Y routes east of Ravensthorpe have been left as freight/diversionary routes for the last 60 years, though they have at least been resignalled.
I thought the TPE route via Castleford to Church Fenton was just a temporary thing while the more direct Micklefield route was being upgraded.
There's also the new Huddersfield-Bradford route to fit in, assuming Labour continue with the idea for NPR.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Although, as a secondary route, it might be electrified but not otherwise upgraded - no 4-tracking or realignments.
L&Y routes east of Ravensthorpe have been left as freight/diversionary routes for the last 60 years, though they have at least been resignalled.
I thought the TPE route via Castleford to Church Fenton was just a temporary thing while the more direct Micklefield route was being upgraded.
There's also the new Huddersfield-Bradford route to fit in, assuming Labour continue with the idea for NPR.

I certainly hope not.
My personal experience of these services are they are rapidly gaining usage on the "new" section, east of Huddersfield.
Increasing services should be on the agenda after the upgrade.

 

[Halifaxlad]

If only there was a connection from just below Nevillie Hill to Woodlesford then you could have a circular service alternating between going via Wakefield/Dewsbury.

I do think that route should be upgraded and electrified but its probably got more use for services to Sheffield if a chord was constructed between Normanton and Crofton bypassing Wakefield!

Really what the Transpennine line needs is for the section through Dewsbury to be four tracked all the way to and through Batley then through a new tunnel comming out adjacent to the M621, bypassing White Rose and Morley.

 

[mike57]

I think the extra distance kills it. To acheive the same Leeds - Huddersfield time as the current route requires an average speed of close to 80mph. That is going to need long streches of 100/110mph running to acheive, and to get that time below 15 mins is 100mph average, probably not acheivable.

To properly upgrade via Dewsbury would need a 4 track route, either by upgrading the existing route, which looks to be impractical apart from a few short streches, or a new direct Ravensthorpe - Leeds two track route to act as fast lines, which could be done with a fair bit of tunneling. Either solution is going to cost billions, and in the current climate, post HS2 debacle no political party is going to promote it.

To be honest even the 'baby steps' haven't been made, get the route electrified, improve line speeds where the alignment allows, even marginally, and upgrade signalling. The glacial pace of full Manchester Leeds York electrification is the big problem, electrification wont solve everything, but it will help, there are still no 'boots on the ground' over much of the remaining unelectrified route and timescales seem to be unclear, and until this step is complete looking at further improvement doesn't make sense. That electrification needs to cover the major diversionary routes as well, because its a 2 track railway.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Although, as a secondary route, it might be electrified but not otherwise upgraded - no 4-tracking or realignments.
L&Y routes east of Ravensthorpe have been left as freight/diversionary routes for the last 60 years, though they have at least been resignalled.
I thought the TPE route via Castleford to Church Fenton was just a temporary thing while the more direct Micklefield route was being upgraded.
There's also the new Huddersfield-Bradford route to fit in, assuming Labour continue with the idea for NPR.

AIUI the reinstatement of the second platform at Casvegas, and the minor upgrades to that route, were at least in part driven by the ability to use them as a diversionary route during the Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade work... however, the old line from the movie Field Of Dreams: "if you build it, they will come" could well apply. Back before 2020, the old Northern Huddersfield to Wakefield service was extended to Cas... only to be axed when everything went up the spout due to Covid.

 

[Halifaxlad]

To properly upgrade via Dewsbury would need a 4 track route, either by upgrading the existing route, which looks to be impractical apart from a few short streches, or a new direct Ravensthorpe - Leeds two track route to act as fast lines, which could be done with a fair bit of tunneling. Either solution is going to cost billions, and in the current climate, post HS2 debacle no political party is going to promote it.

Considering it will become a two track bottleneck from just below Dewsbury and there is appetite for building NPHR in 'full' whatever Starmer means by that is anyone guess I can see further investment on the Transpennine route on the East side of the Pennines quite favourably attractive politically, as for a dedicated brand new line not a chance.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Just reading an old article has reminded me, if there was a new chord East of Leeds then you could potentially send Transpennine services via Castleford and Sherburn in Elmet.

 

[stevieinselby]

Just reading an old article has reminded me, if there was a new chord East of Leeds then you could potentially send Transpennine services via Castleford and Sherburn in Elmet.

Why would you want to divert trains between Leeds and York to serve Castleford, when the route is 6 miles longer than the current route, and it would need a lot of work to build a new chord that would be 3 miles of destruction?

 

[Freeston]

Why would you want to divert trains between Leeds and York to serve Castleford, when the route is 6 miles longer than the current route, and it would need a lot of work to build a new chord that would be 3 miles of destruction?

Please would someone explain to me what a chord is in railway terminology? TIA

 

[30907]

Please would someone explain to me what a chord is in railway terminology? TIA

It's a connection (with a junction at each end) between two existing lines. I think the term derives from geometry, but it's a long time since O Level Maths

An example near you would be the connection between the Normanton and Pontefract lines east of Wakefield Kirkgate. It could equally be called a curve, I don't think there's any rule.