Is the RMT out of control?

[NoMorePacers]

Actually I think the question now extends to : Is the poster, NoMorePacers, out of control?

No he isn't.

 

[HowardGWR]

I just wonder what the OP meant by out of control. Out of control by whom (or what)?

I assume that ultimately, trade unions are controlled by their members. I see no evidence that this is not so, judged by the results of ballots held.

However, no man is an island and it begs the question of whether outside influences are ultimately the boss.

 

[Domh245]

I just wonder what the OP meant by out of control. Out of control by whom (or what)?

"I don't like the party in charge, so I'm going to say that they are out of control"?

 

[Smudger105e]

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-issues-full-set-of-proposals-rejected-by-gtr150816/

RMT issues full set of proposals rejected by GTR in Southern ACAS talks.
RAIL UNION RMT has released the full set of proposals that were tabled in ACAS talks aimed at reaching a settlement in the Southern guards dispute.

The unions proposals, rejected out of hand by the company, would have met the three core objectives;

*The delivery of the customer service objectives of the company.

*A safe and efficient operating system of operation, without the dilution of safety critical competencies, standards or processes, and to create a framework in which the TSM role will operate trains in conjunction with the Train Driver.

* High levels of accessibility to all train services for all passengers, enabling the disabled, elderly, vulnerable and others to be provided with assistance from on-board staff on all services.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said;

"We are releasing the full details of our ACAS proposals so that the travelling public can see that RMT was making every possible effort to ensure a positive outcome in these talks.

"Our proposals covered all the three main areas requiring agreement to allow us to move forwards and we are bitterly disappointed that they have been rejected out of hand. We know that the public who use these services will share our anger and frustration. "

 

[FordFocus]

From a business prospective you have a qualified driver supervising a trainee driver on the same unit so the trainee doesn't allow any extra work to be done but costs extra money, which is why the train driver situation is relatively unique.

A qualified driver is supervising the trainee driver as the clue is in their job title, 'trainee'. They aren't yet qualified to drive on their own on the mainline network. What's unique about this? There are a lot of industries whether it be retail or aviation will have someone supervising and teaching them to ensure they are doing the job properly until they are ready to go out on their own. It will obviously cost a little bit more money per train but it's necessary. Can't have drivers out there on their own with just simulator experience.

People say a lot of people want to become train drivers but would that be the case if you had to fund your own training without the guarantee of work at the end like a lot of airline pilots do? And you can't say a train driver is more highly skilled than an airline pilot.

A lot of TOCs who train drivers from scratch have staged pay when they pass out to regain some of the training money. Northern have 3 years before a driver is on the full salary. I think the first year been around 30k IIRC.

If you go down this airline training method of making people pay for it themselves then you reduce the talent pool of people a TOC can select from. Some may have the money but be completely unsuitable for the job. Make it too difficult and expensive then the risk of there been a shortage of getting people into the classrooms. There is a shortage of regional pilots in the US, some airlines have either reduced the criteria for the minimum number of hours needed to apply or have subsidised their training. BA have recently started a program that encourages anyone to apply with or without training experience, Google the Future Pilot program to get people into the seat. Obviously it's not free but it's an interesting development.

If the railway was completely deregulated like the airlines then I could see there been a complete overhaul of the trainee and staffing arrangements. You could have Ryanrail that undercuts everyone forcing other TOCs to cut costs which would be labour costs. But that won't happen as the DfT are obsessed with getting more and more involved in decisions of TOCs.

 

[spangles]

I just wonder what the OP meant by out of control. Out of control by whom (or what)?

I assume that ultimately, trade unions are controlled by their members. I see no evidence that this is not so, judged by the results of ballots held.

However, no man is an island and it begs the question of whether outside influences are ultimately the boss.

What I meant is that it's seems like the default option is to ballot for strike action at the moment. To me it seems like strike action should be the last card you play. As another poster said once you strike it's hard to escalate further.

I can't help but feel being so trigger happy on strike action simply weakens their overall argument and aim.

I think it could be perceived that the multiple strikes across many employers at the same time hints at politics rather than member interest. The Eurostar issue has apparently been in discussion for eight years but comes to a head now.

 

[Smudger105e]

Indeed, discussion for 8 years? About time something happened then.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

 

[HH]

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-issues-full-set-of-proposals-rejected-by-gtr150816/

Full set of RMT proposals presented via ACAS but rejected by GTR.

There's so many duties there, they'd need three guards to carry them out!

It doesn't offer GTR anything that they want, but it may score some PR points.

 

[DarloRich]

The way the RMT talks is like they represent hard working people who fit in to the working class category. They do represent some people who fit in to both of those descriptions but a lot of TOC employees can't be described as working class due to their salary levels.

So? The Conservatives bang on about being thew party of working people yet clearly aren't. Are you saying the people RMT represent don't work hard or are not "hard working people"?

I assume you are aware that the RMT represent many more people than just train guards. They represent everyone from the most junior trackman and cleaner to guards and drivers via signalers and platform staff and across other industries

Also many TOC employees in higher, more "white collar", roles aren't covered by the RMT collective bargaining rights. They are covered by other unions. Do you suggest that management grades have no need for union support?

 

[embers25]

There's so many duties there, they'd need three guards to carry them out!

It doesn't offer GTR anything that they want, but it may score some PR points.

So basically the RMT weren't interested in negotiating at all. Instead of compromise they went it with a list of unrealistic demands...typical. Surely the public are smart enough to see right through their PR rubbish. This list of demands basically means you may as well almost have 2 fully qualified drivers instead and when will they stop using the term "safety critical". If a guard was safety critical to all trains there would be no DOO. A guard is a nice to have not a necessity. Even those members of the public who want to see a second person on the train wouldn't care if they had route knowledge etc. They just want a human being to approach with questions and help them with connections but if one isn't available it isn't the end of the world and they wouldn't stop travelling.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When will the RMT make their next press release. I am feeling a tad under the weather at the moment and need something to read that will give me the opportunity to have a good laugh....

 

[DarloRich]

When will the RMT make their next press release. I am feeling a tad under the weather at the moment and need something to read that will give me the opportunity to have a good laugh....

Why not sign up to thier mailing list? You can have all the fun you want then. You could even join. I am sure they offer retired members rates. You could help them improve then

 

[HH]

So basically the RMT weren't interested in negotiating at all. Instead of compromise they went it with a list of unrealistic demands...typical. Surely the public are smart enough to see right through their PR rubbish. This list of demands basically means you may as well almost have 2 fully qualified drivers instead and when will they stop using the term "safety critical". If a guard was safety critical to all trains there would be no DOO. A guard is a nice to have not a necessity. Even those members of the public who want to see a second person on the train wouldn't care if they had route knowledge etc. They just want a human being to approach with questions and help them with connections but if one isn't available it isn't the end of the world and they wouldn't stop travelling.

The issue really is that on the substantive issue - DOO - the only possible compromise is that which happened on ScotRail and that's not what the DfT are after. The Scottish Government has a different approach to Westminster and is quite happy to guarantee jobs.

You can't really blame RMT for taking the stance they have; regardless of what else is promised, if Guards lose control of the doors they lose their bargaining power.

 

[northwichcat]

I assume you are aware that the RMT represent many more people than just train guards. They represent everyone from the most junior trackman and cleaner to guards and drivers via signalers and platform staff and across other industries

In the post that you quoted

The way the RMT talks is like they represent hard working people who fit in to the working class category. They do represent some people who fit in to both of those descriptions

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A qualified driver is supervising the trainee driver as the clue is in their job title, 'trainee'. They aren't yet qualified to drive on their own on the mainline network. What's unique about this? There are a lot of industries whether it be retail or aviation will have someone supervising and teaching them to ensure they are doing the job properly until they are ready to go out on their own.

Retail you might have a trainee on the till next to a fully qualified person both serving customers, so while you don't have two people doing the work of two people you have more work being done than one single person would be able to do but then the trainee is probably only being paid minimum wage.

Aviation as has been discussed you need to find a 5 figure sum to fund your own training.

Rail gets the best of both worlds - you're being paid to train even though you aren't making the business any money while you're a trainee. I did say relatively unique i.e. I'm saying it's very uncommon but might not be the only industry it happens in.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Right i have to be careful what i say, in order to answer the question posted by the original poster its a simple yes or no. My answer is No. Not going to say why as that wasnt asked!

With regard to this comment made by jcollins i have just this question to you 'What salary do you consider is working class?

I've heard people say £24-£25k based on a 37.5 hour working week is the average UK salary meaning if you're on that then you in a lower middle class group (which is equivalent to £22.4 to 23.3k for a 35 hour working week.) Consequently being on under £24k and working 37.5 hours a week or more would make you working class.

 

[meridian2]

So? The Conservatives bang on about being thew party of working people yet clearly aren't. Are you saying the people RMT represent don't work hard or are not "hard working people"?

I assume you are aware that the RMT represent many more people than just train guards. They represent everyone from the most junior trackman and cleaner to guards and drivers via signalers and platform staff and across other industries

Also many TOC employees in higher, more "white collar", roles aren't covered by the RMT collective bargaining rights. They are covered by other unions. Do you suggest that management grades have no need for union support?

I think, more likely, that 'management grades' would turn to their union whenever there is something they disagree with. Unfortunately, it seems that the RMT's only mandate is to cause mass disruption just so that these 'management grades' can feel better about themselves..

 

[highdyke]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Class_Survey

Household income of less than 24k probably puts you in working class.

Household income of 47k gets you established middle class status.

Household income of 89k and above gets you elite status.

We all know class is about attitudes too, but at least in terms of salary most railwaymen are middle class these days, with one or two in the elite status.

In RMT and ASLEF land everyone is working class and struggling against the elite, it just ain't so chaps and chapesses.

 

[Dave1987]

So basically the RMT weren't interested in negotiating at all. Instead of compromise they went it with a list of unrealistic demands...typical. Surely the public are smart enough to see right through their PR rubbish. This list of demands basically means you may as well almost have 2 fully qualified drivers instead and when will they stop using the term "safety critical". If a guard was safety critical to all trains there would be no DOO. A guard is a nice to have not a necessity. Even those members of the public who want to see a second person on the train wouldn't care if they had route knowledge etc. They just want a human being to approach with questions and help them with connections but if one isn't available it isn't the end of the world and they wouldn't stop travelling.

One presumes you don't actually understand what the term 'safety critical' means by this post, and therefore don't understand the issues involved in the whole debate.

 

[Smudger105e]

Dave1987, you have a very good point there. I get bored sometimes trying to explain that not all jobs that are critical to safety are Safety Critical posts. Network Rail Group Standards lay down in black and white which tasks are Safety Critical.

For example, using a chainsaw is not Safety Critcal, although it is quite clearly a dangerous activity.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the railway was completely deregulated like the airlines then I could see there been a complete overhaul of the trainee and staffing arrangements. You could have Ryanrail that undercuts everyone forcing other TOCs to cut costs which would be labour costs.

They tried that, and labour costs rose because TOCs and FOCs spent more time poaching staff from other operators than they did training their own.

This is what happens in the air industry. Ryanair have just given their pilots a 10% pay rise across five years, and are actively targeting recruitment in places like Dubai and Abu Dhabi where there are a lot of disaffected pilots working for the middle eastern carriers.

 

[DarloRich]

In the post that you quoted

Thanks for that helpful response. May I just ask if you are able to answer the following question you seem to have missed:

• Are you saying the people RMT represent don't work hard or are not "hard working people"?
  
• Do "managers" ever require support from thier union?
  
• Should managers even have a union?

I've heard people say £24-£25k based on a 37.5 hour working week is the average UK salary meaning if you're on that then you in a lower middle class group (which is equivalent to £22.4 to 23.3k for a 35 hour working week.) Consequently being on under £24k and working 37.5 hours a week or more would make you working class.

So only people on less than £24k may benefit from union support? Is that your argument now?

 

[FordFocus]

They tried that, and labour costs rose because TOCs and FOCs spent more time poaching staff from other operators than they did training their own.

This is what happens in the air industry. Ryanair have just given their pilots a 10% pay rise across five years, and are actively targeting recruitment in places like Dubai and Abu Dhabi where there are a lot of disaffected pilots working for the middle eastern carriers.

Yeah I read about that shortly after I wrote my original post last night. I did some digging around on the pilot forums and realise that their industry is changing a bit with pay and conditions. The Turboprop flyers in the UK are been poached by budget airlines in eastern europe who are promising a free or heavily discounted conversion course to the larger A320 aircraft. Some companies in Asia are offering type rated Captains and First Officers a lot of money to commute on a 3on 1off rosters with discounted accommodation and other perks including free return flights back to the UK to commute in. Ryanair are actively recruiting like you say in Asia and in the Middle East better money to return back home to the UK.

This reminds me of when there were retirements and extra jobs been created at companies like Virgin, East Coast and CrossCountry. They offered the money, T&Cs and people were flocking to them. It affected the lower paying TOCs to sort out their pay and productivity restructuring, LM primarily. Some of the productivity sold by the unions to the staff were questionable for the sake of a few extra hundred quid but that's a story for another day.

In a way it's the free market of supply and demand but with staffing instead of goods. Airlines have cut routes because of a number of factors, over supply from competition or markets collapsing completely because of the financial crisis or terrorism. So these airlines can cut staff contracts or pay to reduce headcount and costs. Now the market has picked up there is a shortage of flight crew and they are trying to attract pilots to fly for them with better pay and conditions. When TOCs are short on staff in today's railway they offer an enhanced overtime rate at some companies or a bonus booking on fee. This is to attract staff in.

 

[northwichcat]

Thanks for that helpful response. May I just ask if you are able to answer the following question you seem to have missed:
Are you saying the people RMT represent don't work hard or are not "hard working people"?
Do "managers" ever require support from thier union?
Should managers even have a union?

So only people on less than £24k may benefit from union support? Is that your argument now?

You've gone off on a tangent and are demanding that I answer questions which are in no way related to what I said. As you can't be bothered reading what I have said and are posting replies which imply I've said something which I haven't I don't see why I should answer questions about a different topic to what I was discussing.

Let's go back to what I was discussing. Do you think it's acceptable for the Conservative Party to say they are representing hard working people when they are only really representing certain groups of hard working people? If not why do you think it's OK for the RMT to mislead people about the group of people they represent when it isn't OK for the Conservative Party? And my response is it's not acceptable for either the Conservatives or the RMT to do that. However, the unions can represent whoever they want to whether it's deputy management or cleaners but shouldn't try to claim the deputy management struggle to make ends meet if it doesn't apply to them.

 

[DarloRich]

You've gone off on a tangent and are demanding that I answer questions which are in no way related to what I said. As you can't be bothered reading what I have said and are posting replies which imply I've said something which I haven't I don't see why I should answer questions about a different topic to what I was discussing.

Let's go back to what I was discussing. Do you think it's acceptable for the Conservative Party to say they are representing hard working people when they are only really representing certain groups of hard working people? If not why do you think it's OK for the RMT to mislead people about the group of people they represent when it isn't OK for the Conservative Party? And my response is it's not acceptable for either the Conservatives or the RMT to do that. However, the unions can represent whoever they want to whether it's deputy management or cleaners but shouldn't try to claim the deputy management struggle to make ends meet if it doesn't apply to them.

Ok that's a no then. I have read every word in this thread but i will leave others to draw an inference from your position if they so wish.

Moving on, surely anyone can struggle to make ends meet regardless of thier station in life?

Surely anyone, regardless of thier station in life can face problems at work? I have represented everyone from directors downwards in my local reps role. The problems people face in the work place are the same across the board even if the salaries are not.

 

[FordFocus]

I think this topic has got into 3 seperate sub topics now.

1) Wages and salary of railway staff and the link to airlines (again)
2) The DOO dispute (again)
3) Left wing politics, RMT, Corbyn and the Conservative Party (again)


As for the topic title question. Is the RMT out of control? No I don't believe they are. They are seperate disputes and are looking after the interests of their members and is serving the purpose of a trade union.

 

[ComUtoR]

People say a lot of people want to become train drivers but would that be the case if you had to fund your own training without the guarantee of work at the end like a lot of airline pilots do?

You do know that trainee's fund their own training.

 

[northwichcat]

You do know that trainee's fund their own training.

In that they pay for lessons and they live off a loan/savings until they are fully qualified?

 

[AlterEgo]

Ok that's a no then. I have read every word in this thread but i will leave others to draw an inference from your position if they so wish.

Moving on, surely anyone can struggle to make ends meet regardless of thier station in life?

Surely anyone, regardless of thier station in life can face problems at work? I have represented everyone from directors downwards in my local reps role. The problems people face in the work place are the same across the board even if the salaries are not.

The point is, most of the RMT's members are decently remunerated - guards earn a middle manager's wage. So it's disingenuous of them to claim all this class struggle claptrap. They bleat about "management" like they're all evil, and not actually former frontline staff they used to represent! (Which is true at most TOCs, most managers are former frontline staff!)

This is the WHOLE POINT - the RMT aren't able to construct a cohesive or believable narrative, and that's why they're getting a good shafting.

It is very frustrating that when people make valid points about the RMT's claims, beliefs or its approach to things, that it gets twisted by strident socialists to say "well everyone needs a union you know". Well, yeah! Unions are great. Especially when they're led by clever people, which unfortunately the RMT is not.

 

[DarloRich]

The point is, most of the RMT's members are decently remunerated - guards earn a middle manager's wage. So it's disingenuous of them to claim all this class struggle claptrap. They bleat about "management" like they're all evil, and not actually former frontline staff they used to represent! (Which is true at most TOCs, most managers are former frontline staff!)

This is the WHOLE POINT - the RMT aren't able to construct a cohesive or believable narrative, and that's why they're getting a good shafting.

It is very frustrating that when people make valid points about the RMT's claims, beliefs or its approach to things, that it gets twisted by strident socialists to say "well everyone needs a union you know". Well, yeah! Unions are great. Especially when they're led by clever people, which unfortunately the RMT is not.

I would say some RMT members are decently remunerated - that is the WHOLE POINT. I would suggest many ( perhaps not train guards) are not. I bet most of their members are not train guards. It is very frustrating when people seem unable to grasp that simple point. I also didn't realise that earnings defined your class or your political views.

I would also challenge your view that I am an ardent socialist! I simply point out how some people, frustratingly, seek to pull everyone down to their level rather than try to level up their position and how, if they had sensible union support, their lot could be better.

That said I share many of the views about the RMT performance. They need to employ some decent PR consultants and get their house in order!

 

[ComUtoR]

In that they pay for lessons and they live off a loan/savings until they are fully qualified?

Not sure why that is relevant. Does it matter how they live. Or that they pay for their training ? Your point is that training is free, but it isn't. I can tell you a number of Trainee's that are living off their credit cards, took out a loan, remortgaged and some that moved back in with parents.

I can also tell you a couple of university students that didn't pay and didn't get loans. They are related to me.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think this topic has got into 3 seperate sub topics now.

1) Wages and salary of railway staff and the link to airlines (again)
2) The DOO dispute (again)
3) Left wing politics, RMT, Corbyn and the Conservative Party (again)


As for the topic title question. Is the RMT out of control? No I don't believe they are. They are seperate disputes and are looking after the interests of their members and is serving the purpose of a trade union.

(2) and (3) have got their own thread. It gets confusing at times when people post off topic.