Is the RMT out of control?

[HH]

Maybe the way they are appointed is the problem - either akin to a football manager who sees the role as short term or a political appointee with a party agenda. Knowing the business and learning a new role by rising through the ranks doesn't seem to be an option anymore. Hence the lack of faith, low morale and poor opinion many workforces have of those in charge. Childish pop maybe but the image and perception exists along with the reality that most MD/CEO in the rail industry all share the same aim of cutting costs and that tends to be at the expense of staff wages and equipment/resources.

I personally know several current TOC MDs as well as several past; most of them have risen through the ranks; none of them have waltzed straight into the role. All of them, without exception, have had the greater good of the railway at heart. Some were probably promoted beyond their capability, but those generally did not stay in the role for long.

Part of a MD's role is to make sure that the company meets its financial targets. Inevitably that means some costs have to be cut, but I can't say I've noticed staff wages ever being cut and equipment/resource is only cut if it's not needed or the money could be better spent elsewhere. If anything, the people that have taken the brunt of 'management action' over the years have been managers.

MDs are very aware of the vital role played by frontline staff. It's why I've been surprised at the position adopted by GTR.

 

[Rup]

The unions have too much power in the railways.

Let the managers and decision-makers make the decisions they have to, and if you don't like it (and it's not illegal), go and work somewhere else.

 

[Dave1987]

The unions have too much power in the railways.

Let the managers and decision-makers make the decisions they have to, and if you don't like it (and it's not illegal), go and work somewhere else.

I presume you know the reaction you are going to get from that post and are posting it just to get a reaction.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The unions have too much power in the railways.

Let the managers and decision-makers make the decisions they have to, and if you don't like it (and it's not illegal), go and work somewhere else.

Sorry not biting :roll:

 

[NoMorePacers]

The unions have too much power in the railways.

Let the managers and decision-makers make the decisions they have to, and if you don't like it (and it's not illegal), go and work somewhere else.

You should know full well that this post will make people see you as a rich, right wing, capitalist prat. Or maybe you're just too arrogant to care, as many Tories and Tory supporters are...

 

[Scott M]

Definitely, there would be a strike if they changed the mess room tea from brand X to brand Y these days.

When you consistently inconvenience the public you start to lose public support, especially when many people think you are overpaid to start with. It starts to look less like a noble workers' rights cause, and more like screwing over everybody else for your own greed.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Definitely, there would be a strike if they changed the mess room tea from brand X to brand Y these days.

When you consistently inconvenience the public you start to lose public support, especially when many people think you are overpaid to start with. It starts to look less like a noble workers' rights cause, and more like screwing over everybody else for your own greed.

*Yawn

 

[Dave1987]

Definitely, there would be a strike if they changed the mess room tea from brand X to brand Y these days.

When you consistently inconvenience the public you start to lose public support, especially when many people think you are overpaid to start with. It starts to look less like a noble workers' rights cause, and more like screwing over everybody else for your own greed.

I had someone tell me I was overpaid recently. Until I showed her a vast list of all the things I need to know for my job and the times I have to get up or stay up until for my shifts. She was staggered by the amount of knowledge and didn't realise that a 3am alarm was the norm. She thought that 6am was 'early', until I said that some days I've already done an hour and a half by then! Suddenly she realised why I was paid so well.

 

[northwichcat]

Most train crews workers have never had it so good. They are very lucky DfT are in charge of subsides and set a minimum service level despite all the objections about DfT making recommendations to the TOCs that the unions don't like. If operators were given free choice over what they run, like they are with buses, Arriva wouldn't be running most local services in the North and there would be some cowboys setting up small companies which go out of business overnight with employees going unpaid (as we've seen with many bus operators.) If that happened unions would be invaluable for rail employees but as it is the rail unions act like they are representing working class members when they are actually representing people in what was traditionally working class roles but being paid the equivalent of a junior or middle manager salary.

 

[Blamethrower]

As someone who has been made redundant over 5 times, I'd love to have had a union that fought to protect me. When I did join a specialist union, they couldn't do a damn thing as it was private

Realistically anyone who works in the public sector can join a union and strike (apart from the exceptions I know). When the cause is just and logical then I support it.

Fighting for better working conditions (Eurostar), I fully support

Fighting against DOO is plain ridiculous.

 

[northwichcat]

I had someone tell me I was overpaid recently. Until I showed her a vast list of all the things I need to know for my job and the times I have to get up or stay up until for my shifts. She was staggered by the amount of knowledge and didn't realise that a 3am alarm was the norm. She thought that 6am was 'early', until I said that some days I've already done an hour and a half by then! Suddenly she realised why I was paid so well.

We now live in an increasingly 24/7 world. People want to be able to bank or shop online at any time of day, while more and more Airports stay open overnight and obviously places like hospitals have never thrown out patients at closing time, so working overnight is becoming more normal. 3am may be an early start for you but some people will be in the middle of their shift at 3am.

As for what you know for you job - a lot of people need a degree to be able to do their job which often has to be obtained at your own expense. Being given full training and being paid while you are a trainee would be a dream in a lot of industries. And before anyone says they can always apply to be a train driver - not everyone's dream is to drive trains.

 

[Dave1987]

We now live in an increasingly 24/7 world. People want to be able to bank or shop online at any time of day, while more and more Airports stay open overnight and obviously places like hospitals have never thrown out patients at closing time, so working overnight is becoming more normal. 3am may be an early start for you but some people will be in the middle of their shift at 3am.

As for what you know for you job - a lot of people need a degree to be able to do their job which often has to be obtained at your own expense. Being given full training and being paid while you are a trainee would be a dream in a lot of industries. And before anyone says they can always apply to be a train driver - not everyone's dream is to drive trains.

Yes we live in an increasingly 24/7 society but most people still work Monday-Friday 9-5 ish. When I get up at 3am and out the door by 4am I can assure most people are still asleep!

And your second paragraph insinuates that because I haven't got a degree I don't deserve to earn what I do. Ow and it wasn't my 'dream job' to be a driver. I saw it as a great career with a very good salary. The wages paid mean that there are some very very talented people being drawn into the profession. As the saying goes "pay peanuts, you get monkeys". I don't dis people that go to university and study at a high level for good subjects like engineering and are rewarded with good careers but don't expect to be told I don't deserve the salary I get merely because I didn't go to university. Especially considering the enormous amount of training you go through.

I know that early mornings and late nights are part of the job. The combination of shift times, responsibility, and knowledge retention are the precise reason the wages are what they are.

 

[Master29]

The unions have too much power in the railways.

Let the managers and decision-makers make the decisions they have to, and if you don't like it (and it's not illegal), go and work somewhere else.

Thank you Boris Johnson.

 

[DarloRich]

Most train crews workers have never had it so good. They are very lucky DfT are in charge of subsides and set a minimum service level despite all the objections about DfT making recommendations to the TOCs that the unions don't like. If operators were given free choice over what they run, like they are with buses, Arriva wouldn't be running most local services in the North and there would be some cowboys setting up small companies which go out of business overnight with employees going unpaid (as we've seen with many bus operators.) If that happened unions would be invaluable for rail employees but as it is the rail unions act like they are representing working class members when they are actually representing people in what was traditionally working class roles but being paid the equivalent of a junior or middle manager salary.

Christ - You best get in touch with loads of unions and tell them to stop their activities as they represent management grades in many industries. :roll: God forbid managers might have problems at work or be treated unfairly.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Definitely, there would be a strike if they changed the mess room tea from brand X to brand Y these days.

When you consistently inconvenience the public you start to lose public support, especially when many people think you are overpaid to start with. It starts to look less like a noble workers' rights cause, and more like screwing over everybody else for your own greed.

of course there would be :roll: An incredibly clueless and pointless post.

 

[Smudger105e]

Thank you Boris Johnson.

I get the distinct impression that some people are simply trolling this thread to bait railway staff. I do wonder why. Is it jealousy, right wing politics or are they simply on a wind-up?

The original poster asked if RMT is out of control. I would suggest that some TOCs are the ones out of control.

You should know full well that this post will make people see you as a rich, right wing, capitalist prat. Or maybe you're just too arrogant to care, as many Tories and Tory supporters are...

Sorry not biting :roll:

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

 

[Flamingo]

Definitely, there would be a strike if they changed the mess room tea from brand X to brand Y these days.

When you consistently inconvenience the public you start to lose public support, especially when many people think you are overpaid to start with. It starts to look less like a noble workers' rights cause, and more like screwing over everybody else for your own greed.

Given that tea isn't supplied to any mess-room I've ever frequented, the first sentence you have posted is blatantly incorrect in every way.

Which puts the rest of your opinion into context...

 

[AlterEgo]

I get the distinct impression that some people are simply trolling this thread to bait railway staff. I do wonder why. Is it jealousy, right wing politics or are they simply on a wind-up?

The original poster asked if RMT is out of control. I would suggest that some TOCs are the ones out of control.

The TOCs are being well controlled by Number 10.

 

[NoMorePacers]

The TOCs are being well controlled by Number 10.

So the question now is: Is Number 10 out of control? Which I'm sure you know the answer to.

 

[tsr]

Given that tea isn't supplied to any mess-room I've ever frequented, the first sentence you have posted is blatantly incorrect in every way.

Which puts the rest of your opinion into context...

Unfortunately your opinion on their opinion is put into context by the fact that tea is provided in many GTR train crew messrooms, and of all the drinks selections, it's probably the most bearable and thus popular...

 

[AlterEgo]

So the question now is: Is Number 10 out of control? Which I'm sure you know the answer to.

Of course not. Number 10 has a very calm and controlled presence inside it. Whether you or I like what she does is something totally different.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Of course not. Number 10 has a very calm and controlled presence inside it. Whether you or I like what she does is something totally different.

The question now extends to: Is the Prime Minister, Theresa May, out of control?

 

[Master29]

Of course not. Number 10 has a very calm and controlled presence inside it. Whether you or I like what she does is something totally different.

So did Hitlers bunker when the Russian bombs weren`t raining down outside.

 

[AlterEgo]

So did Hitlers bunker when the Russian bombs weren`t raining down outside.

Problem is the people launching the bombs haven't got many bombs and aren't aiming at the right thing anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

but most people still work Monday-Friday 9-5 ish. When I get up at 3am and out the door by 4am I can assure most people are still asleep!

Actually most office workers who work fixed hours either officially start at 08:30 or finish at 17:30 unless they they only get 30 minutes for lunch and the lunch break is unpaid. If you work for an ecommerce company on one that works with ecommerce companies there's usually people on call outside of office hours. If the website goes down at 6pm it isn't seen as acceptable for nothing to be done until the following morning.

And your second paragraph insinuates that because I haven't got a degree I don't deserve to earn what I do.

No I was saying you're lucky to get paid training which leads to your highly skilled job opposed to having to pay to educate yourself to get qualified i.e. I'm referring to what happens when you're a trainee driver not what happens when you are a fully qualified driver.

 

[ComUtoR]

No I was saying you're lucky to get paid training which leads to your highly skilled job opposed to having to pay to educate yourself to get qualified

How else can you learn to drive a train ? There isn't a way in which you can learn to drive without actually driving one. It is a manual job.

i.e. I'm referring to what happens when you're a trainee driver not what happens when you are a fully qualified driver.

But trainees are out there driving trains, in service. They are effectively working, whilst training. This is a vocational role. Vocational training is widespread and not limited to the railway.

 

[northwichcat]

Christ - You best get in touch with loads of unions and tell them to stop their activities as they represent management grades in many industries. :roll: God forbid managers might have problems at work or be treated unfairly.

The way the RMT talks is like they represent hard working people who fit in to the working class category. They do represent some people who fit in to both of those descriptions but a lot of TOC employees can't be described as working class due to their salary levels.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How else can you learn to drive a train ? There isn't a way in which you can learn to drive without actually driving one. It is a manual job.

But trainees are out there driving trains, in service. They are effectively working, whilst training. This is a vocational role. Vocational training is widespread and not limited to the railway.

Other vocational qualifications might result in you spending some time in college and some time doing work experience and you aren't always paid for the work experience part.

From a business prospective you have a qualified driver supervising a trainee driver on the same unit so the trainee doesn't allow any extra work to be done but costs extra money, which is why the train driver situation is relatively unique. People say a lot of people want to become train drivers but would that be the case if you had to fund your own training without the guarantee of work at the end like a lot of airline pilots do? And you can't say a train driver is more highly skilled than an airline pilot.

 

[AlterEgo]

How else can you learn to drive a train ? There isn't a way in which you can learn to drive without actually driving one. It is a manual job.



But trainees are out there driving trains, in service. They are effectively working, whilst training. This is a vocational role. Vocational training is widespread and not limited to the railway.

That's very true. But try being an airline pilot, and seeing how much the training costs. There are many, many professions where you have to pay to train, even where that is vocational.

(I'm not saying the railway should move to that awful model btw!!)

 

[ExRes]

The question now extends to: Is the Prime Minister, Theresa May, out of control?

Actually I think the question now extends to : Is the poster, NoMorePacers, out of control?

 

[highdyke]

Most operating staff training is in the classroom anyway, plus simulators.

You will obviously learn lots on the job in real world conditions, but that's the same for almost all jobs. There's no real reason operating staff can't pay for their own training or get sponsorship and pay it back like Airline staff. It's mainly because pay was once low, and it was a way to attract people to the industry. It continues as a perk. I'd favour BTEC type qualifications that cover front line ops, with an option to go to university for managers and engineers personally.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's very true. But try being an airline pilot, and seeing how much the training costs.

My friend's cost £60-70k, his grandparents lent him the cash and he's paying it back - which is no problem now as he's a Captain and on a fair wack. Like railway staff he also risks making a small mistake and being sacked.

He did it with various companies here and abroad and I know of several railway staff that were operating staff that did the same.

http://www.caeoaa.com/first-steps-to-pilot-training/#.V7NjHZgrJhE

 

[313103]

The way the RMT talks is like they represent hard working people who fit in to the working class category. They do represent some people who fit in to both of those descriptions but a lot of TOC employees can't be described as working class due to their salary levels.

Right i have to be careful what i say, in order to answer the question posted by the original poster its a simple yes or no. My answer is No. Not going to say why as that wasnt asked!

With regard to this comment made by jcollins i have just this question to you 'What salary do you consider is working class?