Is the Gatwick Express service likely to be permanently withdrawn?

[capitalconnect]

So it has now been well over a year and a half since the last Gatwick Express service ran and despite all of the corona virus restrictions being withdrawn there has still been nothing said about restarting the Gatwick Express services.

So my question is will the Gatwick Express services be permanently withdrawn? Is it likely that they may never come back? Does anyone think this is a possibility? Has GTR even said anything yet about intending to reinstate Gatwick Express services?

I personally think permanently getting rid of it would be a good idea. Then they can use the stock to lengthen other services. The station already has frequent Southern and Thameslink services so it is not like the Gatwick Express is needed. Plus when it ran the Gatwick Express would often be a few minutes slower than the stopping trains.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

despite all of the corona virus restrictions being withdrawn there has still been nothing said about restarting the Gatwick Express services.

All the Corona Virus restrictions have been withdrawn? I must have missed that announcement…

There are many Corona Virus restrictions still in place and a whole host of those affect the ability to travel without restriction abroad. The Gatwick Express fundamentally exists to serve that market so until the restrictions are eased it’s difficult to tell how traffic at Gatwick Airport will recover (or not) and thus if the dedicated rail service is required in the future.

 

[Robertj21a]

Lengthen what other services - where's the need?
Aren't many of the Brighton Main Line services 12 coach anyway?

 

[capitalconnect]

All the Corona Virus restrictions have been withdrawn? I must have missed that announcement…

There are many Corona Virus restrictions still in place and a whole host of those affect the ability to travel without restriction abroad. The Gatwick Express fundamentally exists to serve that market so until the restrictions are eased it’s difficult to tell how traffic at Gatwick Airport will recover (or not) and thus if the dedicated rail service is required in the future.

All of the Corona Virus restrictions here in the UK are now gone. There are no longer any lockdowns or mask requirements or restrictions on how many people can meet. But that is a good point that there are still some restrictions when travelling to and from other countries. I have not been to any airport recently but i am guessing it is probably still not as busy as it used to be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2021 ==

Lengthen what other services - where's the need?
Aren't many of the Brighton Main Line services 12 coach anyway?

Most of the Mainline services are twelve coach but the Coastway services are mostly four coaches long and get very overcrowded at peak times so they could be used to extend the Coastway services. They could also be used to help withdraw some of the 313 and 455 trains which are well past the end of their life. So i think the extra 387 trains could be very useful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Brighton Express half of it is still running, just as a Southern service, it's the other 2tph just to Gatwick that aren't.

 

[Class 170101]

The Brighton Express half of it is still running, just as a Southern service, it's the other 2tph just to Gatwick that aren't.

And isn't that because platforms at Gatwick are being closed one at a time and rebuilt so there is no room for those terminating services.

 

[zwk500]

Most of the Mainline services are twelve coach but the Coastway services are mostly four coaches long and get very overcrowded at peak times so they could be used to extend the Coastway services. They could also be used to help withdraw some of the 313 and 455 trains which are well past the end of their life. So i think the extra 387 trains could be very useful.

Not sure about the West Coastway, but many East Coastway platforms are only 7 cars long. Using SDO at every station would be problematic, as well as issues like reversing the Brighton-Lewes shuttle in P5 at Lewes, or power supply issues to Seaford.

 

[Robertj21a]

All of the Corona Virus restrictions here in the UK are now gone. There are no longer any lockdowns or mask requirements or restrictions on how many people can meet. But that is a good point that there are still some restrictions when travelling to and from other countries. I have not been to any airport recently but i am guessing it is probably still not as busy as it used to be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2021 ==


Most of the Mainline services are twelve coach but the Coastway services are mostly four coaches long and get very overcrowded at peak times so they could be used to extend the Coastway services. They could also be used to help withdraw some of the 313 and 455 trains which are well past the end of their life. So i think the extra 387 trains could be very useful.

Are the 387s DOO (or OBS)?

I think the 313 and 455s still have guards......

 

[HamworthyGoods]

All of the Corona Virus restrictions here in the UK are now gone. There are no longer any lockdowns or mask requirements or restrictions on how many people can meet. But that is a good point that there are still some restrictions when travelling to and from other countries.

Yes but airports are mostly about foreign travel so it’s those restrictions that are still in place not Domestic ones that are relevant. For this reason Gatwick Airport is still very quiet, in fact the South Terminal remains temporarily closed.

As for UK Corona Virus restrictions your statement that they are all gone, including mask requirements only applies to England - on trains in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland mask wearing is still mandatory.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I seem to recall Gatwick Express earns good money. Was it not the most profitable intercity route back in the days of sectorisation ?. So it will never go provided the demand is there, which it isn't temporarily.

 

[Ianno87]

I seem to recall Gatwick Express earns good money. Was it not the most profitable intercity route back in the days of sectorisation ?. So it will never go provided the demand is there, which it isn't temporarily.

Note the wording: Profitable Intercity route. That may have been to the detriment of Network South East's revenue on London-Gatwick.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Note the wording: Profitable Intercity route. That may have been to the detriment of Network South East's revenue on London-Gatwick.

Mmm, that is a point. It would then follow that many (?) commuter servivces could be more profitable than intercity in those days.

 

[Carlisle]

Note the wording: Profitable Intercity route.

Gatwick or Crawley have never been defined in any meaningful sense as Cities

 

[Peter Sarf]

Gatwick or Crawley have never been defined as Cities

I know but, none the less, it was an intercity route.

Makes me wonder if Gatwick has more chance of becoming a city than Croydon !.

 

[Ianno87]

Gatwick or Crawley have never been defined in any sense as Cities

"Intercity" as in the BR sub-sector for long distance/ Express services. Nothing to do with running between actual cities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Gatwick or Crawley have never been defined in any sense as Cities

InterCity wasn't about connecting cities. It was the profitable long distance bit of BR, that's all, with the unprofitable bits going into Regional Railways and Network SouthEast.

 

[Horizon22]

Conveniently the Gatwick Airport platform works have coincided with coronavirus restrictions and there was a reduced GX service anyway

I seem to recall Gatwick Express earns good money. Was it not the most profitable intercity route back in the days of sectorisation ?. So it will never go provided the demand is there, which it isn't temporarily.

It earns money because they get unsuspecting tourists and naive rail travellers on board with the "Express" brand. Those in the know will always take Southern from Victoria because its barely 5 minutes longer - if slower at all on many occasions. I guess it helps separate crowds from longer-distance trains but calling it Express is a huge con but the marketing has done it's job! Personally I feel the paths could be better used.

 

[capitalconnect]

Are the 387s DOO (or OBS)?

I think the 313 and 455s still have guards......

The 387s are the same as the 377s and can work DOO anywhere on the entire Southern network (except for the Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes Central services) so there is no issue using 387s on Coastway services. In fact the 387s do sometimes get used on a few of the Coastway services already. So there would be no issues using them on other routes.

455s are 100% DOO now. They used to have Guards on the Dorking to Horsham and Leatherhead to Guildford routes until just a couple of years ago but they no longer work these routes. In fact no Southern Guards even sign 455s any more.

313s do indeed still have Guards onboard all services that they work.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Many of the sets are gainfully loaned out to other operators and routes.

Back in the days of slam door trains on Southern Region , an air con train with fast run and an appreciable lift in quality was worthwhile -even a trolley service for a time , but over the years the "Quality" has been eroded greatly such that a non stop was about the almost only attribute , apart from the premium fares of course.

Of course , on the basis of something for nothing , any attempt at stopping the services pre-Covid was massively resisted by Gatwick Airport etc. There was even an idea of a franchise called "Airport Express" - which would have included Gatex, HEX and Stanstead.. in those halcyon days , a money making machine perhaps ?

Depends on the future of Gatwick.

 

[yorksrob]

Surely it depends on the sort of flights the airport will end up specialising in. If it's all package holidays rather than business travel, most potential passengers might prefer budget rather than premium services anyway.

 

[Robertj21a]

The 387s are the same as the 377s and can work DOO anywhere on the entire Southern network (except for the Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes Central services) so there is no issue using 387s on Coastway services. In fact the 387s do sometimes get used on a few of the Coastway services already. So there would be no issues using them on other routes.

455s are 100% DOO now. They used to have Guards on the Dorking to Horsham and Leatherhead to Guildford routes until just a couple of years ago but they no longer work these routes. In fact no Southern Guards even sign 455s any more.

313s do indeed still have Guards onboard all services that they work.

Thanks, very helpful - I may be thinking of SWR 455s still with guards.
So, Southern guards are now only needed for the 313s and Milton Keynes ?

 

[Horizon22]

Thanks, very helpful - I may be thinking of SWR 455s still with guards.
So, Southern guards are now only needed for the 313s and Milton Keynes ?

And Uckfield 171s

 

[Ianno87]

Surely it depends on the sort of flights the airport will end up specialising in. If it's all package holidays rather than business travel, most potential passengers might prefer budget rather than premium services anyway.

Almost certainly I'd imagine it remaining a significant base for easyJet.

And for incoming tourists on easyJet, that fits the "book a cheap flight then do zero prior research as to how to actually get into London itself" market that Gatwick Express targets.

 

[capitalconnect]

Thanks, very helpful - I may be thinking of SWR 455s still with guards.
So, Southern guards are now only needed for the 313s and Milton Keynes ?

No worries. Yes all SWR services do still have Guards onboard. Southern Guards are still needed for:

• All 171s
• All 313s
• All 377s between Clapham Junction and Milton Keynes Central
• Some 377s between Redhill and Tonbridge (the journeys that are driven by a Southeastern Driver require a Guard but the journeys that are driven by a Southern Driver are DOO)

Everything else is now DOO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2021 ==

And Uckfield 171s

Not just the Uckfield ones. All 171s require a Guard. Both on the Marshlink and Uckfield lines. The only difference is that on the Marshlink line the Driver opens the doors and the Guard closes the doors but on the Uckfield line the Guard both opens and closes the doors.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2021 ==

Yes but airports are mostly about foreign travel so it’s those restrictions that are still in place not Domestic ones that are relevant. For this reason Gatwick Airport is still very quiet, in fact the South Terminal remains temporarily closed.

As for UK Corona Virus restrictions your statement that they are all gone, including mask requirements only applies to England - on trains in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland mask wearing is still mandatory.

So the North Terminal is open but the South Terminal is closed? Why have they done it like that instead of just keeping the South Terminal open and closing the North Terminal instead? Would that not make more sense as the South Terminal is the larger main terminal and has a railway station and much more bus routes and it would also enable them to switch off the monorail and save money?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

No worries. Yes all SWR services do still have Guards onboard. Southern Guards are still needed for:

• All 171s
• All 313s
• All 377s between Clapham Junction and Milton Keynes Central
• Some 377s between Redhill and Tonbridge (the journeys that are driven by a Southeastern Driver require a Guard but the journeys that are driven by a Southern Driver are DOO)

Everything else is now DOO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2021 ==


Not just the Uckfield ones. All 171s require a Guard. Both on the Marshlink and Uckfield lines. The only difference is that on the Marshlink line the Driver opens the doors and the Guard closes the doors but on the Uckfield line the Guard both opens and closes the doors.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2021 ==


So the North Terminal is open but the South Terminal is closed? Why have they done it like that instead of just keeping the South Terminal open and closing the North Terminal instead? Would that not make more sense as the South Terminal is the larger main terminal and has a railway station and much more bus routes and it would also enable them to switch off the monorail and save money?

Beacuse EasyJet operate out the north terminal and is the airports biggest carrier by far. All the logistics for EasyJet are based in the North Terminal

 

[Djgr]

Yes but airports are mostly about foreign travel so it’s those restrictions that are still in place not Domestic ones that are relevant. For this reason Gatwick Airport is still very quiet, in fact the South Terminal remains temporarily closed.

As for UK Corona Virus restrictions your statement that they are all gone, including mask requirements only applies to England - on trains in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland mask wearing is still mandatory.

Are restrictions in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland relevant to the Gatwick Express?

 

[johncrossley]

Personally I feel the paths could be better used.

The current off-peak timetable is a lot better now that trains from Victoria to Gatwick are spread more evenly.

 

[LA50041]

The 387s are the same as the 377s and can work DOO anywhere on the entire Southern network (except for the Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes Central services) so there is no issue using 387s on Coastway services. In fact the 387s do sometimes get used on a few of the Coastway services already. So there would be no issues using them on other routes.

Slight correction there, they can’t be used on the entire southern Network as there are only certain depots and links within driver depots that sign 387’s.
Although they are cleared for most of the network

 

[Bill57p9]

Are restrictions in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland relevant to the Gatwick Express?

No, however the original quote was:

All of the Corona Virus restrictions here in the UK are now gone. There are no longer any lockdowns or mask requirements or restrictions on how many people can meet.

 

[Djgr]

So it has now been well over a year and a half since the last Gatwick Express service ran and despite all of the corona virus restrictions being withdrawn there has still been nothing said about restarting the Gatwick Express services.

So my question is will the Gatwick Express services be permanently withdrawn? Is it likely that they may never come back? Does anyone think this is a possibility? Has GTR even said anything yet about intending to reinstate Gatwick Express services?

I personally think permanently getting rid of it would be a good idea. Then they can use the stock to lengthen other services. The station already has frequent Southern and Thameslink services so it is not like the Gatwick Express is needed. Plus when it ran the Gatwick Express would often be a few minutes slower than the stopping trains.

For a time the Gatwick Express offered a premium product at a premium price but in its latter years it was a bit of a cynical scam. Perhaps it is best left in the past.