Is the end is nigh for class 442*

[HMS Ark Royal]

I vote that we stick a 313 pantograph trailer in as well. Stick half a 142 at one end for last mile power as well. Ha ha.

Gets my vote

 

[DerekC]

Yes, the doors are no narrower than an HST's doors, but as it is GatEx, the doors should preferably be wide to allow for lots of luggage.

From memory the doors are the same width as an HST but the power operating mechanism includes a large vertical steel tube just inside the door on one side which restricts the effective width. One of the many reasons why putting them on GatEx was not exactly one of DfT's best decisions in the first place.

 

[southern442]

From memory the doors are the same width as an HST but the power operating mechanism includes a large vertical steel tube just inside the door on one side which restricts the effective width. One of the many reasons why putting them on GatEx was not exactly one of DfT's best decisions in the first place.

Come to think of it, the 442's would be pretty bad for most suburban routes. If put on something that is long-distance enough, such as Southampton and Bognor or Ore and Littlehampton trains, their many seats might do the trick for reducing crowds. However, for something like a peak hour Brighton or East Grinstead train, they might not fear so well; during disruption, I have seen several instances of a GatEx service stopping at Clapham Junction, and the guards yelling "TAKE THIS TRAIN AND CHANGE AT EAST CROYDON FOR COASTAL SERVICES" but because it was so full and the doorways so narrow, no one could get on or off

 

[Mikey C]

Come to think of it, the 442's would be pretty bad for most suburban routes. If put on something that is long-distance enough, such as Southampton and Bognor or Ore and Littlehampton trains, their many seats might do the trick for reducing crowds. However, for something like a peak hour Brighton or East Grinstead train, they might not fear so well; during disruption, I have seen several instances of a GatEx service stopping at Clapham Junction, and the guards yelling "TAKE THIS TRAIN AND CHANGE AT EAST CROYDON FOR COASTAL SERVICES" but because it was so full and the doorways so narrow, no one could get on or off

How did the 442s cope with busy stations, e.g. Soton or Clapham Junction back in their NSE/SWT days?

 

[DerekC]

Come to think of it, the 442's would be pretty bad for most suburban routes. If put on something that is long-distance enough, such as Southampton and Bognor or Ore and Littlehampton trains, their many seats might do the trick for reducing crowds. However, for something like a peak hour Brighton or East Grinstead train, they might not fear so well; during disruption, I have seen several instances of a GatEx service stopping at Clapham Junction, and the guards yelling "TAKE THIS TRAIN AND CHANGE AT EAST CROYDON FOR COASTAL SERVICES" but because it was so full and the doorways so narrow, no one could get on or off

I recall exactly a similar effect on an evening at Clapham Junction when Waterloo was closed because of a substation fire in about 1996 or so. Extremely crowded platform - just as I arrived Waterloo reopened and trains started running through at 40 mph which was very, very scary. Why the first few weren't stopped to clear the Clapham Junction platforms I didn't ever find out. The first train to stop was a 442 to Bournemouth, already full and standing - and it sat there for 10 minutes plus because nobody could move into the vestibules despite there being visible space in the gangways and the passengers trying to board were blocking closure of the doors. After a great deal of shouting it managed to close doors and leave. Luckily followed by a couple of Mk1 slammers which cleared things away (including me) with no harm done.

 

[Kite159]

And I bet the doors have taken a few passengers out when they swing out when said passengers crowd around them

 

[gimmea50anyday]

How did the 442s cope with busy stations, e.g. Soton or Clapham Junction back in their NSE/SWT days?

They didnt stop at Clapham Junction in NSE days! The number of times I leapt off a 50 hauled service to jump on a 442 only to find it hammer straight through the station I lost count! I didnt bother looking at timetables in them days and just threw caution to the wind!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Errr... they did; I ran up most of my 442 haulages from Clapham Junction to Waterloo when they were fairly new...

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I was obviously aiming for the wrong services! Think the pompeys did but the weymouths didnt iirc....

 

[47271]

I think it might have been the other way round, I was never on the Soton route, but I used them between Guildford and Waterloo a lot in the nineties and as I recall the majority went nonstop offpeak, without even a Woking call. There was also a nonstop (possibly one per hour out of a 20 minute frequency) that went via Effingham Jn.

As for the doors and speed of boarding. Yes the stainless steel pole doesn't help with width, but they were (and presumably still are) so s-l-o-w. So often I saw people furiously jabbing at the button wondering why nothing had happened, and panicking that they were trapped or about to be left behind, and then finally there was that terrifying (cracking and thudding at the same time) noise as the thing heaved and crawled out of the opening.

 

[WarrenTManager]

God awful. Despite then being most people's ideal solution for every problem on the UK rail network, plus many sexual fantasies as far as I can tell.

As you can tell I can't wait to see them in my next razor and tin of beans...

A predecessor once said to me '******* units with ******* suppliers'. That didn't sell it well to be honest.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I think it might have been the other way round, I was never on the Soton route, but I used them between Guildford and Waterloo a lot in the nineties and as I recall the majority went nonstop offpeak, without even a Woking call. There was also a nonstop (possibly one per hour out of a 20 minute frequency) that went via Effingham Jn.

As for the doors and speed of boarding. Yes the stainless steel pole doesn't help with width, but they were (and presumably still are) so s-l-o-w. So often I saw people furiously jabbing at the button wondering why nothing had happened, and panicking that they were trapped or about to be left behind, and then finally there was that terrifying (cracking and thudding at the same time) noise as the thing heaved and crawled out of the opening.

Definitely the majority did call at Woking and some called at Clapham (although never in the peak). The calling pattern from the Harbour was as it is today. Portsmouth and Southsea, Fratton, Havant, Petersfield, Haslemere, Guildford, Woking, Clapham Junction (sometimes) and Waterloo. There was one "Network Express" (called the Super Fast in the early SWT days) per hour which started at Portsmouth and Southsea and called at Fratton, Havant, Guildford and Waterloo.
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God awful. Despite then being most people's ideal solution for every problem on the UK rail network, plus many sexual fantasies as far as I can tell.

As you can tell I can't wait to see them in my next razor and tin of beans...

They weren't god awful when they were operated by NSE or SWT. Have SN/GTR let them deteriorate that much?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

They weren't god awful when they were operated by NSE or SWT. Have SN/GTR let them deteriorate that much?

They were god awful when they worked on the Southern, but benefited from being less god awful than some of the decrepit, flea infested, leaky, draughty, ponderous slam door stock that worked the routes at the time.

Or were you London Fire Brigade at the time - they gave plenty firefighters plenty of overtime, ditto for the fitters.

 

[southern442]

They weren't god awful when they were operated by NSE or SWT. Have SN/GTR let them deteriorate that much?

That post was an exaggeration. GTR hasn't let them deteriorate, and yes the interior in the SWT days was far nicer, but they are actually still pretty good units, they are just inappropriate for the routes that they serve. To the passenger that might still equate to them being 'god awful' though.

 

[Blaahh]

I like this thread but anything that suggests 442s should be push pulled by 33/1s would do. It's about time all 19 locos were exhumed from the secret shed at Eastleigh, shhhh they were never scrapped, destroyed, crash damaged etc.. I think 442s should come home and replace all 450s, so i never ever have to travel on one ever again

 

[43096]

That post was an exaggeration. GTR hasn't let them deteriorate, and yes the interior in the SWT days was far nicer, but they are actually still pretty good units, they are just inappropriate for the routes that they serve. To the passenger that might still equate to them being 'god awful' though.

The 442s are, by a very long way, the best units that Southern have. The opinion of normals on train comfort is irrelevant: they often have no comparative on which to base an assessment. As for reliability, Southern just don't know how to, or are not interested in, maintaining them properly, as they were consistently reliable when Bournemouth had them. Mind you, SWT's fleet reliability is almost always better than Southern's.

 

[Domh245]

The 442s are, by a very long way, the best units that Southern have. The opinion of normals on train comfort is irrelevant: they often have no comparative on which to base an assessment.

Erm, Normals? As opposed to whom, enthusiasts?

Are you telling me that the people who use the trains day in, day out, shouldn't have a say in what they look like, and instead we should only listen to enthusiasts on forums?

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

The 442s are, by a very long way, the best units that Southern have.

So where's the queue of operators desperate to get hold of them?

The opinion of normals on train comfort is irrelevant

So what are you? An expert? An ace? Jedi prince perhaps?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

So where's the queue of operators desperate to get hold of them?



So what are you? An expert? An ace? Jedi prince perhaps?

There are no Jedi Princes... There are, in order, the following: Younglings, Initiates, Padawans, Knights, Master, Grand Master

 

[talldave]

The 442s are, by a very long way, the best units that Southern have. The opinion of normals on train comfort is irrelevant: they often have no comparative on which to base an assessment. As for reliability, Southern just don't know how to, or are not interested in, maintaining them properly, as they were consistently reliable when Bournemouth had them. Mind you, SWT's fleet reliability is almost always better than Southern's.

Really? I guess Southern don't have any other rolling stock with over aggressive interior doors trying to slice you in two as you attempt to disembark. Oh hang on, that's because it's a crap feature that nobody sane would specify on a train carrying humans!

Scrap the damned things asap and I'll open a bottle of champagne the day they meet their grim reaper.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Really? I guess Southern don't have any other rolling stock with over aggressive interior doors trying to slice you in two as you attempt to disembark. Oh hang on, that's because it's a crap feature that nobody sane would specify on a train carrying humans!

Scrap the damned things asap and I'll open a bottle of champagne the day they meet their grim reaper.

Thats trainism towards 442s...

 

[southern442]

Thats trainism towards 442s...

Well we all have our own pet hates. I for one would like to see the 450's burn along with the 700's but that's just me.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Well we all have our own pet hates. I for one would like to see the 450's burn along with the 700's but that's just me.

And that is Train Genocide... I will stop you with a squadron of 142s

 

[southern442]

And that is Train Genocide... I will stop you with a squadron of 142s

Actually scrap that, I'll give everyone back the Desiros if I can kill some of the S stock.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Actually scrap that, I'll give everyone back the Desiros if I can kill some of the S stock.

Okay, I'll allow that

I think that the only thing that will happen with 442s is conversion to other TOC use

 

[southern442]

Okay, I'll allow that

I think that the only thing that will happen with 442s is conversion to other TOC use

Yep, and TPE can be ruled out because they want 125 mph units. Maybe Scotrail could take them as coaching stock with the HST's? Plug doors do seem to be in fashion with mark 3's these days

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Yep, and TPE can be ruled out because they want 125 mph units. Maybe Scotrail could take them as coaching stock with the HST's? Plug doors do seem to be in fashion with mark 3's these days

Indeed...

Personally, I hope Scotrail run a service to the Isle of Bute - because we can have endless amounts of fun with Bute Plug door jokes *sniggers like childish school boy*

 

[Chrisgr31]

The 442s are, by a very long way, the best units that Southern have. The opinion of normals on train comfort is irrelevant: they often have no comparative on which to base an assessment. As for reliability, Southern just don't know how to, or are not interested in, maintaining them properly, as they were consistently reliable when Bournemouth had them. Mind you, SWT's fleet reliability is almost always better than Southern's.

No they aren't. thee Class 171's are the best trains Southern have, leaving aside the fact they are the most comfortable, they can also go anywhere unlike any other train Southern has, they keep going in all weathers, and have the best staff

 

[D365]

Actually scrap that, I'll give everyone back the Desiros if I can kill some of the S stock.

What's wrong with S Stock, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's wrong with S Stock, if you don't mind me asking?

They are near enough perfect for their role. The only genuine fault I can think of is that they are a bit slow off the mark, but that is probably a power supply issue.