Is the Cornwall Metro a good idea?

[TheBigD]

mods note - split from here.

Mid Cornwall Metro scheme?

I've obviously missed this one. Any idea what it is or involves please?

 

[fgwrich]

Mid Cornwall Metro scheme?

I've obviously missed this one. Any idea what it is or involves please?

It is the utterly bizarre Newquay > Par > St Austell > Truro > Falmouth service, which combines and joins together the current Truro > Falmouth & Par > Newquay services. A good increase for Par > Newquay but I'm still not sure how Truro > Falmouth will fare.

 

[TheBigD]

It is the utterly bizarre Newquay > Par > St Austell > Truro > Falmouth service, which combines and joins together the current Truro > Falmouth & Par > Newquay services. A good increase for Par > Newquay but I'm still not sure how Truro > Falmouth will fare.

Ah, I was aware of that scheme as it was mentioned in another thread. Extra platform at Newquay as well I believe.

I wouldn't have associate the word " Metro" with the Newquay line in a million years though!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It is the utterly bizarre Newquay > Par > St Austell > Truro > Falmouth service, which combines and joins together the current Truro > Falmouth & Par > Newquay services. A good increase for Par > Newquay but I'm still not sure how Truro > Falmouth will fare.

How is it bizarre to link Newquay directly with St Austell and Truro as those are much greater traffic objectives than Par. Indeed linking with St Austell has been on the cards since BR days.

 

[fgwrich]

How is it bizarre to link Newquay directly with St Austell and Truro as those are much greater traffic objectives than Par. Indeed linking with St Austell has been on the cards since BR days.

It’s bizarre because it will still utilise the route via Par / St Blazey, than re-instating a slightly faster route via St Dennis to St Austell, therefore the route will still be slower and still involve a reversal at Par (or St Austell if the other route had been re-opened). Newquay > Truro and Newquay > St Austell already has good road connections with at least 4 regular bus routes from Newquay to Truro (U2 / Coast to Coaster, 91, 92, 93).

Truro > Falmouth has a very regular and reliable 30 minute service which after leaving the mainline doesn’t have to interact with anything else. Newquay > Par has freight, various level crossings and is a slower route. Then you’ve got to interact with anything on the Cornish mainline as well. Nice idea, but I can see Truro > Falmouth losing out and the service suffering or collapsing if anything on the latter part of the route suffers. Indeed most people in Newquay already tend to go by road if they want to travel to Truro.

 

[Gloster]

The mid-1989s plans would have seen the line from St Dennis Junction to Burngullow reopen with one or two stations and trains would have continued on to Par or Lostwithiel to turn back, or possibly through to Plymouth. There could also have been a station in the Holmbush area between St Austell and Par.

 

[MarkyT]

The mid-1989s plans would have seen the line from St Dennis Junction to Burngullow reopen with one or two stations and trains would have continued on to Par or Lostwithiel to turn back, or possibly through to Plymouth. There could also have been a station in the Holmbush area between St Austell and Par.

That scheme was dependent on road budget funds from the contemporary A30 dualling project that was deferred. Diverting the railway would have allowed its trackbed to be used for part of the widening and would have abolished some level crossings and a low railway bridge. When the road scheme was resurrected many years later, DfT built a different route that didn't follow the old road and had no effect on the railway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2022 ==

Further to the 'Cornwall Metro' concept, I can see it makes some sense to find a way to link Newquay directly to St Austell by some means, but St Dennis Junction to St Austell via Par (reverse) is about 16 miles, compared to about 10 miles via Burngullow with no reverse. Both routes will always be slow, mainly due to curvature, probably averaging 30mph or less with stops, so the extra six miles and reverse could easily add up to a 15 minute difference in journey time. Going via Par (reverse) to just St Austell would raise the problem of how to reverse there. The official proposal tackles this by running the train through to Truro and Falmouth, adding a third train per regular hour between St. Austell and Truro, but exposing both branches to more opportunity for 'performance pollution' from the main line. A London end bay might be plausible at St Austell instead, on the up side, at the expense of some parking spaces. Going via Burngullow would also avoid reversal and allow the train to use the existing up and down through platforms at St Austell, then go on to Par or further for reversal. Either option could allow an extra station for local traffic to be constructed somewhere between St Austell and Par. Perhaps the biggest problem diverting the Newquay line would be what to do with the three intermediate stations on the section. Roche and Bugle each had figures of around 5000 passengers pa in their busiest recent year, 2018/19, with Luxylyan under 2000. A separate shuttle between Par and Roche might be run to maintain service at these stations. With running time around 25 minutes each way, an hourly service could be possible with one unit; it might be plausible to form it from the stock of the terminating hourly train from Newquay via Burngullow and St Austell, if that terminated at Par, providing a direct St Austell service from these minor stations.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Impossible now but in hindsight would the Newquay-Perranporth-Blackwater Jct line have been the better line to have kept open? A direct service to/from Truro could have been possible today.

 

[Gloster]

Impossible now but in hindsight would the Newquay-Perranporth-Blackwater Jct line have been the better line to have kept open? A direct service to/from Truro could have been possible today.

This has often been said, despite the longer journey for holiday trains. However, once you have to keep the line open to St Dennis Junction for clay trains, it would have been a non-starter.

 

[Busaholic]

That scheme was dependent on road budget funds from the contemporary A30 dualling project that was deferred. Diverting the railway would have allowed its trackbed to be used for part of the widening and would have abolished some level crossings and a low railway bridge. When the road scheme was resurrected many years later, DfT built a different route that didn't follow the old road and had no effect on the railway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2022 ==

Further to the 'Cornwall Metro' concept, I can see it makes some sense to find a way to link Newquay directly to St Austell by some means, but St Dennis Junction to St Austell via Par (reverse) is about 16 miles, compared to about 10 miles via Burngullow with no reverse. Both routes will always be slow, mainly due to curvature, probably averaging 30mph or less with stops, so the extra six miles and reverse could easily add up to a 15 minute difference in journey time. Going via Par (reverse) to just St Austell would raise the problem of how to reverse there. The official proposal tackles this by running the train through to Truro and Falmouth, adding a third train per regular hour between St. Austell and Truro, but exposing both branches to more opportunity for 'performance pollution' from the main line. A London end bay might be plausible at St Austell instead, on the up side, at the expense of some parking spaces. Going via Burngullow would also avoid reversal and allow the train to use the existing up and down through platforms at St Austell, then go on to Par or further for reversal. Either option could allow an extra station for local traffic to be constructed somewhere between St Austell and Par. Perhaps the biggest problem diverting the Newquay line would be what to do with the three intermediate stations on the section. Roche and Bugle each had figures of around 5000 passengers pa in their busiest recent year, 2018/19, with Luxylyan under 2000. A separate shuttle between Par and Roche might be run to maintain service at these stations. With running time around 25 minutes each way, an hourly service could be possible with one unit; it might be plausible to form it from the stock of the terminating hourly train from Newquay via Burngullow and St Austell, if that terminated at Par, providing a direct St Austell service from these minor stations.

The 'Metro' scheme only proposes an hourly service over the whole route Newquay to Falmouth, so is a misuse of the word imo. Presumably another unit will work an hourly Truro to Falmouth, to retain the 30 minute interval between those two points. but liable to poor interworking when something has occurred east and north of Truro.

 

[TheBigD]

Is there an in depth report anywhere of what exactly is proposed under the (misnamed) Mid Cornwall Metro?

From what I can make out it is...

An extra platform at Newquay
An extra passing loop at Tregoss Moor
An hourly service from Newquay to Par (reverse) and on to Truro and Falmouth

Are any other infrastructure improvements included like level crossing upgrades or linespeed increases?

And is there really a market for an hourly service taking around 75 minutes to do the 15ish miles by road between Newquay and Truro?

 

[Ashley Hill]

A bit speculative but would a new curve off the mainline onto the branch avoiding reversal at Par speed up the journey and make it more attractive? A reopened St Blazey station could serve the town instead of Par for metro services.

 

[Gloster]

A bit speculative but would a new curve off the mainline onto the branch avoiding reversal at Par speed up the journey and make it more attractive? A reopened St Blazey station could serve the town instead of Par for metro services.

It might be possible to use the line down to the harbour (or was this the one with the low bridge that needed the squat saddle-tanks) and then curve round. But you are adding a lot of cost for limited gain.

 

[Ashley Hill]

TBH I cannot see any justification for the Mid Cornwall Metro. The Falmouth line works fine as it is and Newquay only really comes into its own during the summer. Is there really a justified demand for such a service or is it someone’s pet project that they’re determined to see through come success or failure?

 

[richw]

And is there really a market for an hourly service taking around 75 minutes to do the 15ish miles by road between Newquay and Truro?

The fastest bus is only around 50 mins.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm rather reluctant to say anything about hte Metro, I've been rapped for being speculative too many times!

However, if they are resignalling things, what is the rationale for not moving everything being resignalled to the Exeter facility or wherever the eventual ROC will be?

Are they just concerned about having too may changes of signalling control point on a route?

 

[Gloster]

I'm rather reluctant to say anything about hte Metro, I've been rapped for being speculative too many times!

However, if they are resignalling things, what is the rationale for not moving everything being resignalled to the Exeter facility or wherever the eventual ROC will be?

Are they just concerned about having too may changes of signalling control point on a route?

I have a vague feeling that I have read that Exeter will need complete refurbishment before it can become a ROC. It would be common sense, although that is not always Network Rail’s style, not to move everything in to it and then have to move it all out again, and then back in again.

 

[tbtc]

Newquay > Truro and Newquay > St Austell already has good road connections with at least 4 regular bus routes from Newquay to Truro (U2 / Coast to Coaster, 91, 92, 93)

most people in Newquay already tend to go by road if they want to travel to Truro.

You’ve said it yourself - Newquay to Truro is a busy enough corridor to sustain a regular bus service, but it’s unattractive to go by rail (because the infrequent Newquay service doesn’t always connect very well with the Plymouth- Penzance trains)

A direct hourly service should transform the attractiveness of rail (even if it reversed en route), suddenly you don’t need to cross reference timetable or wait a long time at Par

Plus, whilst extending the Falmouth service may affect its reliability, at the same time this combined service means Cornwall having an “internal” service on the Par - St Austell - Truro corridor, rather than the majority of trains coming from London/ Bristol/ beyond (I appreciate that there are some which have ‘only’ come from Plymouth, but still, a service on the main line that starts in Cornwall and ends in Cornwall means passengers won’t always be at the mercy of a points failure hundreds of miles away)

 

[Busaholic]

You’ve said it yourself - Newquay to Truro is a busy enough corridor to sustain a regular bus service, but it’s unattractive to go by rail (because the infrequent Newquay service doesn’t always connect very well with the Plymouth- Penzance trains)

A direct hourly service should transform the attractiveness of rail (even if it reversed en route), suddenly you don’t need to cross reference timetable or wait a long time at Par

Plus, whilst extending the Falmouth service may affect its reliability, at the same time this combined service means Cornwall having an “internal” service on the Par - St Austell - Truro corridor, rather than the majority of trains coming from London/ Bristol/ beyond (I appreciate that there are some which have ‘only’ come from Plymouth, but still, a service on the main line that starts in Cornwall and ends in Cornwall means passengers won’t always be at the mercy of a points failure hundreds of miles away)

My 'solution' (!) would be an hourly express bus service Falmouth to Newquay, calling only at Penryn Campus, Truro (bus station, rail station and Royal Cornwall Hospital environs), with an hourly train service Truro to Newquay utilising the platform adjacent to the 'up' platform at Truro: the half-hourly Falmouth service would continue as a self-contained operation.

 

[Irascible]

I have a vague feeling that I have read that Exeter will need complete refurbishment before it can become a ROC. It would be common sense, although that is not always Network Rail’s style, not to move everything in to it and then have to move it all out again, and then back in again.

The Exeter area needs resignalling, whether that stops the building being usable is anotehr matter. Isn't there another signalling area at Plymouth inbetween? so they'd basically be two seperate operations anyway.

 

[Gloster]

My familiarity with the area dates back to the mid-1980s and there have been changes since then, but I think Plymouth Panel fringes to Liskeard box to the west and to Exeter PSB just west of Totnes to the east. Exeter fringes to the small panel at Paignton, to Crediton and Exmouth Junction in Devon, and to Westbury and Bristol, or maybe it is now the Thames Valley ROC, further afield.

 

[MarkyT]

My familiarity with the area dates back to the mid-1980s and there have been changes since then, but I think Plymouth Panel fringes to Liskeard box to the west and to Exeter PSB just west of Totnes to the east. Exeter fringes to the small panel at Paignton, to Crediton and Exmouth Junction in Devon, and to Westbury and Bristol, or maybe it is now the Thames Valley ROC, further afield.

I think there's still a bit on Bristol panel west of Temple Meads to the Exeter interface near Bridgewater. Eventually that will go to Didcot no doubt, although there has been talk of moving that interface a little further east, adding a little extra route mileage to Exeter. The Exeter/ Westbury fringe has not changed since the 1980s. In Cornwall there was once a little switch panel box at St. Germans, in the old station building I believe, that acted as the Plymouth fringe, but that was abolished quite recently with new axle counters extending Plymouth control to Liskeard.

 

[Glenn1969]

Has this scheme been funded or is it on the RYR no chance of happening list ?

 

[Gloster]

St Germans box seems to have closed in April 1998; as it was plain line to Liskeard it always seemed a bit odd that even in the financially precarious 70s they didn’t go through to Liskeard. The ‘panel’ was three (?) switches fitted at the back of a desk that had reputedly come out of Plymouth Control. The block instrument and bell tapper were also at the back: it was very odd working these when sitting down with your arm stretched out straight in front of you.

 

[MarkyT]

St Germans box seems to have closed in April 1998; as it was plain line to Liskeard it always seemed a bit odd that even in the financially precarious 70s they didn’t go through to Liskeard. The ‘panel’ was three (?) switches fitted at the back of a desk that had reputedly come out of Plymouth Control. The block instrument and bell tapper were also at the back: it was very odd working these when sitting down with your arm stretched out straight in front of you.

By transitioning from TCB to Absolute Block at St. Germans, about nine miles of track circuiting on each track was avoided, which, before axle counters became mainstream, would have required a large number of individual track circuit sections, each with their equipment cabinets, power supplies, repeat relay circuits and associated cabling, even though only providing one logical block section. I also recall St Germans closing some time ago and I suspect the '98 scheme first put axle counters in to establish TCB working but retained the long block section from there through to Liskeard. The more recent 2018 scheme split the block with extra signals somewhere around Menheniot for greater capacity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2022 ==

It might be possible to use the line down to the harbour (or was this the one with the low bridge that needed the squat saddle-tanks) and then curve round. But you are adding a lot of cost for limited gain.

And you'd have to cross the main private road access into the Par harbour site. Perhaps the security guard at the entrance gate might control and supervise a level crossing there. The climb and (approx 200m radius) curve up to the main line would be quite onerous. Perhaps the biggest disadvantage with Newquay trains missing Par station would be that Newquay-bound passengers on long-distance services from East and North would be forced to go into St Austell to change and come back, unless they were prepared to schlepp across town on foot between Par and a new St Blazey station with their luggage and surfboards, assuming the long-distance trains would even continue stopping at Par any more, with it not being the most convenient interchange station.

 

[Kite159]

If the "Newquay Metro" does happen, what will happen with the current summer trains from London direct for Newquay?

 

[bramling]

It is the utterly bizarre Newquay > Par > St Austell > Truro > Falmouth service, which combines and joins together the current Truro > Falmouth & Par > Newquay services. A good increase for Par > Newquay but I'm still not sure how Truro > Falmouth will fare.

I can understand why locally there there might be a desire to improve the Newquay service, as it's very much the poor relation of the Cornwall branches. I'd agree with the view that it's risky linking it to Falmouth, though. Through running to either Plymouth or Penzance would be more resilient. Even a clockface service run as a Par-Newquay shuttle would be beneficial.

IMO Falmouth should be left well alone, the current service seems to work very well, and is well used so must be doing something right.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If the "Newquay Metro" does happen, what will happen with the current summer trains from London direct for Newquay?

They will continue to operate. That’s why the second platform is being restored at Newquay.

 

[BrianW]

I can understand why locally there there might be a desire to improve the Newquay service, as it's very much the poor relation of the Cornwall branches. I'd agree with the view that it's risky linking it to Falmouth, though. Through running to either Plymouth or Penzance would be more resilient. Even a clockface service run as a Par-Newquay shuttle would be beneficial.

IMO Falmouth should be left well alone, the current service seems to work very well, and is well used so must be doing something right.

IIRC Falmouth-Truro was awarded 'Restore Your railway' funding to examine doubling frequency?
Presumably those involved will be informed by data regarding onward travel intentions at Truro (and Par?), and buses.

 

[PTR 444]

Instead of short a passing loop on the existing Newquay branch, has anyone ever thought about rebuilding the Indian Queens - St Dennis line to act as a mega passing loop for Roche, Bugle and Luxulyan?

Consider this: You could have a 2-hourly clockface service departing Newquay which would “call” at the request stops all the way to Par as it does now. But rather than terminating there, it reverses and continues on to St Austell before heading back to Newquay non-stop via the fully-rebuilt St Dennis Line. In the opposite hour, another service on a 2-hourly rota departs Newquay and does the same route in reverse. My diagram attached below shows how it could be done.