Is the Alderley Edge stopper really necessary?

[cle]

I see it as a growing pain of Manchester, and its boom/growth in the last 20 years into a multi-centric global city.

As such, big boy cities with big boy jobs often require onward journeys from a terminus. People should be thankful of the multiple options making it 'termini' (Victoria, plus secondary access via Salford Central, Oxford Road, Deansgate) which Manchester offers. And a tram network linking it all up too.

Smaller in economy overall these days of course, but Leeds has one station and no trams!

 

[Purple Orange]

Would there be scope for sending all TfW services in to Victoria? The Cardiff services take 43 mins from Crewe to Piccadilly. Crewe-Victoria via Warrington would take approximately 46 mins (17 mins Crewe-WBQ; 29 mins WBQ-Vic).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't disagree with you, but you remind me that platforms 10, 11 & 12 are compromised. They all share a single track, and platform 12 is relatively inaccessible to passengers as well. In the 1970s platforms 11 & 12 simply weren't used for passenger trains, indeed I think the track was lifted in platform 12 whereas platform 11 was used for parcels trains because a road ran into the station between platforms 10 & 11. Platform 10 was used, but only infrequently - my 16:10 to Poynton and Macclesfield used it for example.

12 was trackless and disused until reinstated in the late 90s/early 2000s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2020 ==

Would there be scope for sending all TfW services in to Victoria? The Cardiff services take 43 mins from Crewe to Piccadilly. Crewe-Victoria via Warrington would take approximately 46 mins (17 mins Crewe-WBQ; 29 mins WBQ-Vic).

Vic is getting busy too. We can hope that the new arena just confirmed kills off the old one, and it can be flattened and turned into a proper second Hauptbahnhof, maybe with something like 10 to 12 long (240m?) through platforms. Something like Leeds would work well.

 

[py_megapixel]

Something like Leeds would work well.

Though hopefully with better signage and more space to wait which isn't freezing cold!

 

[Purple Orange]

Vic is getting busy too. We can hope that the new arena just confirmed kills off the old one, and it can be flattened and turned into a proper second Hauptbahnhof, maybe with something like 10 to 12 long (240m?) through platforms. Something like Leeds would work well.

I agree that Victoria should be expanded, but I can’t see any reason that the Arena will go. Manchester is a significant draw and a competitor coming in building a new arena in a saturated market is a very high risk, which really suggests that the market in Manchester is not yet fully satisfied and the new arena will be serving untapped potential.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that Victoria should be expanded, but I can’t see any reason that the Arena will go. Manchester is a significant draw and a competitor coming in building a new arena in a saturated market is a very high risk, which really suggests that the market in Manchester is not yet fully satisfied and the new arena will be serving untapped potential.

To be fair, there would be space for, and there are old viaducts leading to, space to the west of the Arena for 3 or 4 additional terminal platforms.

 

[Purple Orange]

To be fair, there would be space for, and there are old viaducts leading to, space to the west of the Arena for 3 or 4 additional terminal platforms.

Isn’t that where the plan was for 2 new terminus platforms was? Surely no longer than the current P1 & 2?

Then again, if the game here is really all about capacity through Castlefield, then diverting TfW and Southport services to Victoria, while terminating Alderley Edge at Picc is big piece of the jigsaw.

 

[jfollows]

12 was trackless and disused until reinstated in the late 90s/early 2000s.

Thank you - for confirming what I thought and for filling in the gaps in my memory.
In the 1970s I used to loiter at the end of platform 12 when my friend who was a guard visited the mess room, I recall tracks being grotty and disused, or non-existent.
I left Manchester in 1980 and lived in Oxford, London, Portsmouth, Portchester, Clanfield, Boulder & Bath before returning to Manchester in 1996, so there's some 16 years here in which I wasn't totally familiar with Manchester's rail happenings.
Since 1996 I noted that platform 12 was in use again at some point. I have used it since then on a train precisely once, I think on a Chester service normally via Warrington diverted via Stockport on a weekend. I certainly haven't used it for more than 10 years now.

 

[cle]

Western-facing platforms at Victoria, even if 2 of them and 6 cars length, would be very useful. Good for these short trains coming from Wales. Salford Central being built out properly would help further - near to a lot of the better jobs action (Spinningfields, Granada etc but also the New Bailey developments) - but also as an interchange round Ordsall to the Corridor and Airport.

As to the Cardiff service running to Victoria, interesting. The journey time difference is negligible. Connections-wise, the most likely from Cardiff at Piccadilly would be Leeds and York, which are now better from Victoria anyway. Crewe would be connected with Victoria also.

On the south side, you'd have to replace it with a service which offers another fast to Wilmslow, I'd expect. Maybe another Birmingham (giving Wilmslow a Birmingham, which would use longer stock than the Cardiff) and beyond? Or it could be a future EWR service to Oxford/Reading, via Crewe and then the Trent Valley?

 

[jfollows]

All interesting discussion - if you moved the Chester to Victoria, then moved one of the hourly Birmingham services to Wilmslow, you open up paths for stopping trains on the Macclesfield line. Pre-Covid timetable we had an afternoon Manchester-Bournemouth via Wilmslow at 17:27 to enable a path for a semi-fast Stoke service, which Northern then didn't run anyway. There was also a morning Birmingham-Manchester via Wilmslow, I think for the same reason in reverse.

 

[Purple Orange]

Western-facing platforms at Victoria, even if 2 of them and 6 cars length, would be very useful. Good for these short trains coming from Wales. Salford Central being built out properly would help further - near to a lot of the better jobs action (Spinningfields, Granada etc but also the New Bailey developments) - but also as an interchange round Ordsall to the Corridor and Airport.

As to the Cardiff service running to Victoria, interesting. The journey time difference is negligible. Connections-wise, the most likely from Cardiff at Piccadilly would be Leeds and York, which are now better from Victoria anyway. Crewe would be connected with Victoria also.

On the south side, you'd have to replace it with a service which offers another fast to Wilmslow, I'd expect. Maybe another Birmingham (giving Wilmslow a Birmingham, which would use longer stock than the Cardiff) and beyond? Or it could be a future EWR service to Oxford/Reading, via Crewe and then the Trent Valley?

Certainly allocating one of the XC services to Wilmslow would be a good start, enabling an additional stopper on the Macclesfield line to give it 2 tph and therefore 4 tph from Cheadle Hulme onwards.

Personally I wouldn’t stop there and would aim for achieving a 5th or even a 6th service to Cheadle Hulme. Whether that is at all possible is another question - perhaps once HS2 is up and running there could be 6 stopping services per hour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2020 ==

PS, in the mornings between 7am and 8am, there are 3 stoppers running between Alderley Edge and Piccadilly via Stockport, while the rest of the day it is just 2 tph. What is enabling the 3rd morning peak service to take place, that prevents it from happening all day?

 

[py_megapixel]

Personally I wouldn’t stop there and would aim for achieving a 5th or even a 6th service to Cheadle Hulme. Whether that is at all possible is another question - perhaps once HS2 is up and running there could be 6 stopping services per hour.

I think once you've got 4tph to CHU it gets to the point where track capacity north of Stockport would be better used to serve other destinations, for example an extra Mid Cheshire service or even a Hope Valley semi-fast via Hazel Grove.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think once you've got 4tph to CHU it gets to the point where track capacity north of Stockport would be better used to serve other destinations, for example an extra Mid Cheshire service or even a Hope Valley semi-fast via Hazel Grove.

I suppose in the morning peaks it is almost at that level with 4 tph between 7am & 8am, 3 from Alderley Edge, 1 from Macc.

 

[py_megapixel]

I suppose in the morning peaks it is almost at that level with 4 tph between 7am & 8am, 3 from Alderley Edge, 1 from Macc.

To be fair from what I've seen of CHU in the peak (not been there a huge amount) all services are absolutely rammed, even on arrival, so possibly some more peak extras wouldn't go amiss. However I don't think more than 4 or 5 tph is really warranted at other times.

 

[Purple Orange]

To be fair from what I've seen of CHU in the peak (not been there a huge amount) all services are absolutely rammed, even on arrival, so possibly some more peak extras wouldn't go amiss. However I don't think more than 4 or 5 tph is really warranted at other times.

Yeah, it’s been standing room only. I disagree about the off-peak service pattern, because it is the high frequency that gets people out of the car. Stations such as Alderley Edge, Handforth and Bramhall should have more than 2 tph (granted Alderley Edge has 3, but it very slow going via the airport).

I appreciate that such changes may not happen until HS2 arrives, but this part of the world needs a train service that is closer to metro frequencies.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

in the mornings between 7am and 8am, there are 3 stoppers running between Alderley Edge and Piccadilly via Stockport, while the rest of the day it is just 2 tph. What is enabling the 3rd morning peak service to take place, that prevents it from happening all day?

Full frequency of services from Euston not yet established at that time.

 

[Purple Orange]

Full frequency of services from Euston not yet established at that time.

Thanks. Once again, the case for HS2 is made.

 

[jfollows]

Full frequency of services from Euston not yet established at that time.

Technically this statement is correct, however there's an hourly fast Avanti service from 06:27 to 22:27 from Wilmslow to Manchester because the first two services start from Crewe. So this isn't the reason for the extra stopper. But, more importantly perhaps, what is the third stopping service, I only see 07:13 & 07:49 departures from Alderley Edge today? However, pre-Covid perhaps, I recall that there was an extra service, which didn't stop at Stockport, ah yes, the working timetable shows 2H99 at 07:29, which followed one of the Avanti fast services which had started from Crewe.

So, although I don't think it runs today, the extra stopper referred to was probably 2H99 which was squeezed into a path by omitting the Stockport stop, so it wasn't exactly ideal.

 

[Purple Orange]

Technically this statement is correct, however there's an hourly fast Avanti service from 06:27 to 22:27 from Wilmslow to Manchester because the first two services start from Crewe. So this isn't the reason for the extra stopper. But, more importantly perhaps, what is the third stopping service, I only see 07:13 & 07:49 departures from Alderley Edge today? However, pre-Covid perhaps, I recall that there was an extra service, which didn't stop at Stockport, ah yes, the working timetable shows 2H99 at 07:29, which followed one of the Avanti fast services which had started from Crewe.

So, although I don't think it runs today, the extra stopper referred to was probably 2H99 which was squeezed into a path by omitting the Stockport stop, so it wasn't exactly ideal.

The third service would leave Wilmslow at circa 07:34. I believe it started at Crewe. Prior to May 2018 this train would stop at Handforth, Cheadle Holme, Stockport and fast to Piccadilly, but then changed to stop at Handforth, Cheadle Hulme, Heston Chapel, Levenshulme and Piccadilly. Of the three stoppers, it was by far the busiest in my experience and most useful.

 

[jfollows]

The third service would leave Wilmslow at circa 07:34. I believe it started at Crewe. Prior to May 2018 this train would stop at Handforth, Cheadle Holme, Stockport and fast to Piccadilly, but then changed to stop at Handforth, Cheadle Hulme, Heston Chapel, Levenshulme and Piccadilly. Of the three stoppers, it was by far the busiest in my experience and most useful.

Prior to May 2018 the service you are talking about was 2H43, 07:30 Alderley Edge to Manchester Piccadilly and booked for a DMU, 07:33 from Wilmslow. It may have changed to EMU during the course of the timetable as more 319 EMUs became available.

 

[Purple Orange]

Prior to May 2018 the service you are talking about was 2H43, 07:30 Alderley Edge to Manchester Piccadilly and booked for a DMU, 07:33 from Wilmslow. It may have changed to EMU during the course of the timetable as more 319 EMUs became available.

That train was always a 323 - I’ve been using that service for years. The Northern service after it was the DMU (pacer combo mutant) that went on to Bolton direction.

 

[jfollows]

That train was always a 323 - I’ve been using that service for years. The Northern service after it was the DMU (pacer combo mutant) that went on to Bolton direction.

Fair enough, you're the one that travelled on it after all, I'm only going by what the working timetable said. Ironically, as mentioned earlier, the WTT for December shows the Bolton service as EMU, which it wasn't either.

 

[Purple Orange]

Fair enough, you're the one that travelled on it after all, I'm only going by what the working timetable said. Ironically, as mentioned earlier, the WTT for December shows the Bolton service as EMU, which it wasn't either.

Well if it was down to me, it would all be EMUs out of Wilmslow, sacking off the Bolton/Wigan/Southport extension. Not much can be done about TfW DMUs though.

 

[faltskog36abba]

I see it as a growing pain of Manchester, and its boom/growth in the last 20 years into a multi-centric global city.

As such, big boy cities with big boy jobs often require onward journeys from a terminus. People should be thankful of the multiple options making it 'termini' (Victoria, plus secondary access via Salford Central, Oxford Road, Deansgate) which Manchester offers. And a tram network linking it all up too.

Smaller in economy overall these days of course, but Leeds has one station and no trams!

If you are in London and want to go to Nottingham-You head for x station, Then if heading to the south coast or wales then its Y and Z stations. Manchester is nowhere as big as London -But we are connected to the Rail Termini by the Metrolink and two trains per hour via the Ordsall Chord, Send Southport and North Wales to Victoria and stop Sending everything through Castlefield.

 

[Purple Orange]

If you are in London and want to go to Nottingham-You head for x station, Then if heading to the south coast or wales then its Y and Z stations. Manchester is nowhere as big as London -But we are connected to the Rail Termini by the Metrolink and two trains per hour via the Ordsall Chord, Send Southport and North Wales to Victoria and stop Sending everything through Castlefield.

Yes! If only Victoria had circa 12 platforms! Scotland, Leeds, Newcastle, Liverpool, Wales (South and North Wales) services should all be at Victoria (ideally). Really this is a consequence of removing 11 platforms from Victoria. Perhaps in hindsight, 8 through platforms should have been created. Alas, here we are with a perpetual headache and without any paracetamol.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Misread the post above. Thought it was referring to London Victoria.

 

[Philip]

Yeah, it’s been standing room only. I disagree about the off-peak service pattern, because it is the high frequency that gets people out of the car. Stations such as Alderley Edge, Handforth and Bramhall should have more than 2 tph (granted Alderley Edge has 3, but it very slow going via the airport).

I appreciate that such changes may not happen until HS2 arrives, but this part of the world needs a train service that is closer to metro frequencies.

An hourly service would suffice at all those stations.

 

[py_megapixel]

An hourly service would suffice at all those stations.

Could you elaborate? Your post seems to be made with little consideration of the actual situation that this section of the railway is in.

These services are essentially in direct competition with people driving into Manchester. So wrecking the train's competitiveness with road - which is what I believe would happen as the result of a service reduction - is likely to cause huge drops in passenger numbers.


Alderley Edge, Handforth and Bramhall are all rather wealthy communities where most residents own vehicles. The train is slightly faster than the car but that's the only thing it's got going for it. If the frequency is dropped to 1tph the prospect of an hour wait at Piccadilly on the way back will push people into their cars.

If capacity through Castlefield is the issue, why not just revert it to a local stopper terminating at Piccadilly? And if capacity towards Stockport is an issue, then why choose a long-standing and fairly well-used stopper to get rid of, rather than something else?

 

[Philip]

Could you elaborate? Your post seems to be made with little consideration of the actual situation that this section of the railway is in.

These services are essentially in direct competition with people driving into Manchester. So wrecking the train's competitiveness with road - which is what I believe would happen as the result of a service reduction - is likely to cause huge drops in passenger numbers.


Alderley Edge, Handforth and Bramhall are all rather wealthy communities where most residents own vehicles. The train is slightly faster than the car but that's the only thing it's got going for it. If the frequency is dropped to 1tph the prospect of an hour wait at Piccadilly on the way back will push people into their cars.

If capacity through Castlefield is the issue, why not just revert it to a local stopper terminating at Piccadilly? And if capacity towards Stockport is an issue, then why choose a long-standing and fairly well-used stopper to get rid of, rather than something else?

Much larger places in Cheshire like Nantwich, Northwich and Knutsford are only on an hourly frequency, if that. So why do these villages need a more regular service interval, particularly as you say when many people have cars and do drive? Increasing the service interval is unlikely to tempt people on to the train if the option to drive is there, particularly in these times and with the cost of rail fares. The stock would be better used increasing capacity on the Atherton and Knutsford lines, or in the case of EMUs, the Glossop line.

 

[py_megapixel]

Much larger places in Cheshire like Nantwich, Northwich and Knutsford are only on an hourly frequency, if that. So why do these villages need a more regular service interval, particularly as you say when many people have cars and do drive? Increasing the service interval is unlikely to tempt people on to the train if the option to drive is there, particularly in these times and with the cost of rail fares. The stock would be better used increasing capacity on the Atherton and Knutsford lines, or in the case of EMUs, the Glossop line.

Fair point, but I don't necessarily think getting rid of the Alderley stopper is the best way to achieve this.

Alternatively, why not get rid of the Hazel Grove stopper? Unlike removing the Alderley stopper that doesn't represent a frequency cut from the start of the franchise, because there's now the extra Buxton service per hour.