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Is SE London getting a raw deal?
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Good point. Those spoilt, pampered baby-boomer princesses of Sevenoaks and Tunbridge Wells may well commute in the peaks, but off peak and weekend demand is all intra-London - and should be prioritised as such.
Any place where people are struggling to get on and travelling in very poor conditions, to the detriment of the economy and social need, should have greater investment. Why make it north v south? There's many areas that need better.
The pot spent on transport should be bigger, and not keeping the pot small so areas fight amongst each other for parts of it. But it take gov to change that, and pressure from the public. The UK can afford it, it just needs to re-focus priorities.
Welcome to RailUK forums ScotGG. Your comment is very apt but some here seem to use any discussion to plead the north's 'we're the worst treated in the UK' complaint. Their solution would not only give them better services, but also penalise London and the SE as some sort of retribution.
There's a whole thread with over 1500 posts about the North's position where their posted points are debunked many times, but they still play the broken record. It's now beginning to sound like the 'I'm persecuted because I'm the only gay in the village' sketch from Little Britain. They can't accept that anybody else has problems with their rail services.
Sorry mate, I'm not so much trying to make this North V South as jokingly commenting on the fact this thread was started as a reaction to the Is The North Getting a Rough Deal thread.
Exactly. I know they have an extremely difficult job given the infrastructure and don't expect miracles. Most of the time I find their service satisfactory. My main issue is not using the resources they have and responding to rising demand eg longer trains on weekends and a proper off peak frequency. I'd really like to see a proper shake up of the franchise - rather than just provide the minimum spec, see a dynamic company that will take the service by the scruff of its neck and really make a difference with longer trains, better frequencies, a network to really be proud of.
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Sorry mate, I'm not so much trying to make this North V South as jokingly commenting on the fact this thread was started as a reaction to the Is The North Getting a Rough Deal thread.
I should have said is SE London the North of London not the North of the South when I started the thread as I realise it sits within the more prosperous south east.
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That's because they were the last of the old three Southern region divisions to get their stopper stock replaced; SW and SN had the 455s up to ten years before the Networkers appeared!
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Much of the long distance routes are segregated from the Metro routes - not all or entirely I agree - it's mainly the old London Chatham Dover Railway that suffers most as it's nearly all two track with stoppers and fasts sharing. Also what is being argued for is utilisation of paths that are generally used during the peaks then allowed to stand unused outside the peaks - rather than filling the network to the gills with "extras".
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The curve at Cambria Junction is too tight to increase the speed I suspect. It's a common infrastructure issues in the SE and SN areas - it's the same from Selhurst to W Croydon, Streatham Common to Streatham etc.
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Busaholic
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All the more reason why a Bakerloo extension should be London Underground's No. 1 priority scheme, to New Cross and St Johns via North Peckham (Old Kent Road), then,ideally, Lewisham and I don't propose to get into where thereafter.
Grove Park to Bromley North could be converted to tramway, extended to Bromley South, up Masons Hill, then three branches:-
(A) Bromley Common, Locksbottom (hospital), Orpington (Glades)
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(B) Bromley Common (Crown), Petts Wood, St Pauls Cray/St Marys Cray
(C)Norman Park, Hayes, New Addington (to connect with Croydon Tramlink)
As someone who spent many years of my life travelling in to London from St Leonards I strongly object to the way in which you describe my friends and fellow passengers, of whom you clearly have little knowledge.
On the underlying issue I would point out that the near 62 mile journey to Charing Cross from Warrior Square takes 102" on the 0608, 97" on the 0631 and 104" on the 0706. Standard off-peak times are 89" on the hourly fast and 100" on the hourly slow. Time-keeping is not noticeably good. I have never been aware of any "prioritisation" on the sections shared with more local services (Sevenoaks-Orpington or on the up side of Hither Green).
Perhaps you would like to identify what further detriment you feel would be appropriate to Hastings Line running times and what benefit would thereby accrue to other passengers?
SE London. Fine if you live on an LOROL line, DLR or the Jubilee line.
If you're deep in Southeastern metro land, no, especially during late evenings and Sundays, it becomes a 2tph service with no incentive for the franchise operator to improve services.
Buses in inner SE London are overcrowded thanks to the lack of a rail service along the Peckham to Elephant & Castle corridor and Route 53 from Plumstead to Whitehall is one of those trunk routes which is always popular considering the expense of commuting from the likes of Plumstead or Woolwich Arsenal.
If you're deep in Southeastern metro land, no, especially during late evenings and Sundays, it becomes a 2tph service with no incentive for the franchise operator to improve services.
Buses in inner SE London are overcrowded thanks to the lack of a rail service along the Peckham to Elephant & Castle corridor and Route 53 from Plumstead to Whitehall is one of those trunk routes which is always popular considering the expense of commuting from the likes of Plumstead or Woolwich Arsenal.
I was talking specifically about off peak and weekend demand - clearly being higher from the more populated London metro stations of Southeastern than from ye olde villages and dormitory towns of Kent, who receive a similar service.
Baby Boomers and their 'legacy' to subsequent generations is another discussion.
St Leonards is neither an 'olde village' nor a 'dormitory town' nor, for that matter in Kent.
More pertinently two trains averaging 41.6mph (fast) or 37.0mph (slow) each off-peak hour (for the 60+ mile run to Warrior Square) doesn't stand particularly good comparison with 8 trains per hour down the Woolwich Line, 6 trains per hour down the Bexleyheath Line, 4 trains per hour down the Sidcup Line, 4 per hour down the Grove Park route, 4 per hour down to Hayes. I'm not campaigning for more trains down the Hastings Line, I just can't understand what you think it is that is being provided at the expense of more local services. Overall there are six main line paths into London Bridge on the SE side (FCC ignored) and these, as I have previous stated, have no obvious priority over other services where they share track.
What precisely do you think should be done differently?
I'll grant that 2 per hour via the Catford Loop Line may not be particularly great but that doesn't interact with the SER main line services you feel to be deserving of less 'prioritisation'.
Finally may I apologise for being a baby at the time many others were babies. Perhaps you would like to take the matter up with my one remaining parent?
The legacy of my generation is not all that it might be and, with my own child now inheriting it, I am well aware that much might have been done differently. I will only claim, for myself, that I have tried, a little, to address these issues. One thing I have learnt is that people are very different and, whenever possible, we should avoid lumping them together for stigmatisation.
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I'm sorry but I didn't mention St Leonards. I don't disagree with any of your facts or points, but you're talking about something else entirely.
On off peak I wasn't talking about 11am, but evenings and weekends (which I thought was clear, apologies if not) - and how the service drops off a cliff. Even though there will be more demand within London than without. The Catford Loop is ironically no worse off, due to terrible service at the best of times.
Maybe if elderly users paid, off peak services might be more accurately compensated.
On off peak I wasn't talking about 11am, but evenings and weekends (which I thought was clear, apologies if not) - and how the service drops off a cliff. Even though there will be more demand within London than without. The Catford Loop is ironically no worse off, due to terrible service at the best of times.
Maybe if elderly users paid, off peak services might be more accurately compensated.
Busaholic
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Elderly users of train services in the vast majority of England do have to pay, and even those fortunate enough to have the London Freedom Pass have to pay full fare in the morning peak. How can you compensate an off peak service anyway?
Except on National Rail services operated by London Overground, plus all other TfL services are free in the morning peak.
We are talking about off peak services, and in London - hence not payable by the elderly. If these services were 'compensated' by more farebox, perhaps they'd be better. But if a TOC, you would think 'why expand something which is financially negative for us', thus we have bad services.
I thought this was for historical reasons?
The area north of the Thames was (in general) owned by the gentry who wouldn't sell the land (or had the power to prevent compulsory purchase) so they had to tunnel underneath. The area South of the river was owned by the Church and commoners, and so they built overground lines instead.
No idea where I read that, so it may all be guff!
Tetchytyke
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The underground being mainly on the north side of the river is for one main reason, and that's that the historic main centre of London is on the north side of the river. This was the area that the heavy rail companies couldn't easily reach, so the tube lines saw the gap in the market.
The 1910 Underground map shows that the original deep tube lines were focused on the City, Oxford Street and the West End- the bits that the big trains couldn't get to. It was only later, with 30s Metroland and 50s post-war slum clearances, that the Underground expanded. And in many cases (e.g. both Northern Line branches and the Central Line) the expansion took over existing heavy rail lines.
The 1910 Underground map shows that the original deep tube lines were focused on the City, Oxford Street and the West End- the bits that the big trains couldn't get to. It was only later, with 30s Metroland and 50s post-war slum clearances, that the Underground expanded. And in many cases (e.g. both Northern Line branches and the Central Line) the expansion took over existing heavy rail lines.
Wrong on both counts, however, on the subject in hand:
As a fairly regular traveller on South Eastern, it does annoy me that it has been allowed to impose higher fare rises for some time, whether you're using the high speed route or not. Also, South Eastern seems to have been a bit late in introducing offers etc compared to the central and south western divisions, although this appears to improved a little in the last couple of years.
The main saving grace is that I can use my network card on most journeys as I tend to travel off peak.
Busaholic
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Yes, I was referring to National Rail Services. As TfL absorb more routes into Overground then pensioners in the places covered will benefit, at a time when pass restriction gets greater in places outside London and restricted to the absolute minimum required by law. If you live in Cornwall, as I do, you'll suddenly find that even the bare minimum is less than before, because certain bus routes are deemed to be provided primarily for tourism, regardless of how many local people use them in the absence of viable alternatives! However, I'm not holding my breath for Cameron/Clegg/Miliband to come rushing with olive branches.
The Cornish need to start getting uppity and demanding more power, then the Westminster parties will throw stuff at you!
Busaholic
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I'll be careful what I say here, because I'm not Cornish, just been living here 26 years. Some down here like to compare us to Brittany, except conveniently forgetting Brittany occupies a much larger area and its people are as adept (perhaps even more so) as any in France as protesting physically at perceived injustices and getting things done about them. Brittany Ferries was an example of a united, co-operative venture that thrived but such action is almost inconceivable down here. The county with the lowest wages in the country yet every parliamentary seat is winnable by the Tories!
Same thing today as last week - SE are running lots of 4 car trains instead of 8 on the Greenwich line all the way up to the end of the day. Not good when the line is curtailed at Plumstead and thus only 4 trains an hour along the line instead of the normal 6 at Greenwich and 8 at Woolwich/Charlton.
4 (short) trains per hour instead of 8 at Charlton station today - when Charlton Athletic were at home against Watford.
They are bloody poor. To run half the number of trains as normal is not their fault with engineering works, but to then run some of the remaining services at half length on a Saturday when Charlton are at home is stupid. They put up online in the morning that there would be half length trains all the way up to end of service.
Do they not have contingency plans at all?
Do they not have contingency plans at all?
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As my train ran into London Bridge at about 1345 today I noticed an eight-car Cannon Street - Plumstead depart from platform 1 with a good load but space at the front.
CNash
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I think that there should be more opportunities to interchange between the Southeastern metro lines and the new London Overground extension to Clapham Junction. Currently, anyone not on the Bexleyheath line has to change for a Victoria service at Lewisham, or change at New Cross, go one stop up to Surrey Quays and change again.
An additional station on the route to London Bridge might work (though obviously this is a pipe-dream, not properly researched idea). I had thought about Spa Road, but it would need to be somewhere around Millwall stadium for the interchange to work.
Another idea: if LO ran trains into London Bridge (splitting at Queens Road Peckham and additionally serving South Bermondsey, along the Southern route there), commuters could travel to London Bridge and then change to the Overground for Clapham Junction. It would save having to make two changes via the Northern Line (and potentially incurring the mixed-mode fee on Oyster PAYG), and provide an alternative to changing at Waterloo East, helping to ease the crowding there in the mornings.
An additional station on the route to London Bridge might work (though obviously this is a pipe-dream, not properly researched idea). I had thought about Spa Road, but it would need to be somewhere around Millwall stadium for the interchange to work.
Another idea: if LO ran trains into London Bridge (splitting at Queens Road Peckham and additionally serving South Bermondsey, along the Southern route there), commuters could travel to London Bridge and then change to the Overground for Clapham Junction. It would save having to make two changes via the Northern Line (and potentially incurring the mixed-mode fee on Oyster PAYG), and provide an alternative to changing at Waterloo East, helping to ease the crowding there in the mornings.
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