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Is public transport cheaper?

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I know it to cost £40 to fill my car's fuel tank from when its low, and I know it did the 300 mile journey from Bradford to here on the sunny south coast on one tank, so £80 for a round trip? £79 return on crosscountrytrains.co.uk, public transport wins by £1! ;):D

I rather suspect that the train fare that you're quoting is a book-ahead fare that restricts you to the train that's named. Travelling by car gives you the option of choosing what time to travel, well worth an extra pound!
 
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imagination

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If you bring flexibility into play in favour of the car, however, you have to bring into play factors in favour of public transport such as reliability and lower levels of stress/exhaustion.

Plus that was JUST from the fuel costs of the car, which are only a small part of the operating costs of the car, and thus only a small part of the costs of the journey.
 

Deerfold

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My commute home tonight from Kings X will cost £10.50 direct to Keighley. It'll then be another £1.50 on the bus home. If I paid for bus travel in London it'd be another £1.10 on my Oystercard. Total £12.10.

The AA reckons running costs alone are 20p a mile for a small car. That'd be £43.20 before fixed costs and the fact I'd need to park in the middle of London or incur other travel costs.

I'd be mad to do anything different (except live a bit nearer where I work). It's also unlikely the car would be faster especially at the times I usually travel.

Obviously my example depends on me getting cheap advance fares - which generally I do. It falls down a bit next week - it'll cost me £13 down on a combination of train and overnight coach which will be slower but I'll be sleeping on the way which doesn't work well in a car.
 

GB

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If you bring flexibility into play in favour of the car, however, you have to bring into play factors in favour of public transport such as reliability and lower levels of stress/exhaustion.
.

Reliability and stress is relative really as it depends how often you use public transport/own car, journey distance and area/company involved.
 

90019

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Plus that was JUST from the fuel costs of the car, which are only a small part of the operating costs of the car, and thus only a small part of the costs of the journey.

Indeed, but if you take public transport, you're still paying for the car as well, even though you're not using it.
 

Metroland

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Nor am I!

In a nutshell this is why there is so many congestion problems. People buy the cars, feel they need to use them, often just comparing the price of petrol (and sometimes the parking). Also taking additional journeys were they wouldn't have done or would have walked, in a very convenient way. All this on roads which are free at the point of use, with no demand pricing, unlike other forms of transport.

Very difficult to solve because it's seen as restricting freedom, revenue raising, and some object to subsidy for public transport to bring the prices down in order to compete with the car.

The only thing you can do is provide roads where possible, or where you can't, attractive alternatives. Congestion charging seems only politically possible where cars have very low modal share, eg central London where it's less than 10%.
 

imagination

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Except that of course (with a tiny number of exceptions), building new roads doesnt actually have any effect on congestion levels - it just generates new traffic. Even at best it just diverts the congestion to a different point along the road.
 

Zoe

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If the private car was banned today, the public transport network wouldn't be able to cope with the additional demand.
 

Failed Unit

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If the private car was banned today, the public transport network wouldn't be able to cope with the additional demand.

Not only that with the planning of the last 30 years and push towards out of town retail parks / business parks most people wouldn't be able to get to work! Someone from Scotland may be able to tell me but how do you get to Eurocentral without a car. Livingston is a classic car only designed town!
 

Metroland

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Not only that with the planning of the last 30 years and push towards out of town retail parks / business parks most people wouldn't be able to get to work!

Quite so, we've had 40 years of planning around the car as you say - diffuse travel patterns, out of town shopping, urban sprawl, ripping out the bus, tram and rail networks, making towns and cities less walkable, hiking fares. People walk and cycle less than at any time in history too.

Fine if you are able to or can afford to drive, if not you are at a disadvantage in some areas. It's easy to forget 50% of households in some cities don't own cars.

Of course nobody ever, to my knowledge talks about banning cars, but it seems non-car users have had to suffer for years with less options.
 

Zoe

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Fine if you are able to or can afford to drive, if not you are at a disadvantage in some areas. It's easy to forget 50% of households in some cities don't own cars.
That's fine in somewhere like London where you can usually get a bus to anywhere you want to go. In cities like Bristol though it's not as easy to get around without a car, the bus network in Bristol is with a few exceptions entirely radial with all routes going from the centre out so this can involve quite a detour to get where you want to go. Bristol also has some of the highest bus fares.
 

Metroland

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Well whose fault is that? It wasn't always the way, it's entirely down to planning and lobbying. And if anyone dares to say, let's have some options, they are shot down as anti-car, as if it's a religion, even though all it's about is choice and making all our lives easier in the face of perpetual gridlock and ever increasing motoring bills.
 

Zoe

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Well whose fault is that? It wasn't always the way, it's entirely down to planning and lobbying. And if anyone dares to say, let's have some options, they are shot down as anti-car, as if it's a religion, even though all it's about is choice and making all our lives easier in the face of perpetual gridlock and ever increasing motoring bills.
Have you not considered the fact that public transport used to be run as a public service for the people and not for the benefit of shareholders pockets? Many people would use public transport more if fares were cheaper and the buses actually went where they wanted to go.
 

Metroland

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I entirely agree with you, some of the fault has to be government policy desperate to sell off public services, and run in not for public benefit, but for profit. At the same time maintain a free at the point of use road system that isn't sensitive to demand.

The results are entirely predictable, I'm agreeing with you and other people above.

And for the benefit of doubt, I'm not for road pricing, but I am for improvements to all transport where warranted taking a balanced approach, and attractive alternatives to persuade people to leave cars at home, not to force them, where its needed.
 

Zoe

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Car park charges at stations don't help things as they just encourage people to drive all the way rather than park the car and take the train. It doesn't make sense at all to charge at some "Parkway" stations that are out in the middle of nowhere with large carparks. It just seems to be a revenue raising excersice.
 

starrymarkb

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Have you not considered the fact that public transport used to be run as a public service for the people and not for the benefit of shareholders pockets? Many people would use public transport more if fares were cheaper and the buses actually went where they wanted to go.

Probably not. In Exeter the bus company is getting loads of flack because of recent route changes.

Complaints Include
*More frequent and larger(sic) buses disturbing residents (Bit of a fib, the section in question used 56 plate Darts in the past and uses older Darts now) - bet if the company took the extra buses away the same people would be complaining about their cut in service
*The buses now running closer to houses as the Cowley Bridge no-longer operates via the station. (instead going via the University) They don't have to walk so far to the bus stop (yes really!)
*The buses are too full to get a seat because of the extra custom running more frequently has bought
 

imagination

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If the private car was banned today, the public transport network wouldn't be able to cope with the additional demand.

That is true in the short term.

In the medium term you would see a surge in bus operators which would rectify almost all of the problems caused, and possibly higher investment in buses from local councils could lead to most of the rest of them being resolved.

In the long term you would see a major restructuring of towns up and down the country to eradicate car-centric elements, to the benefit of just about everyone.

Of course, there would be a very small number who would experience serious adverse impacts from a ban on cars even in the long term, and I do not see it ever happening, or even advocate it. However, that doesn't mean that we can't do the restructuring anyway, and there have been some positives, such as the growth of pedestrianised streets in city centres, park and ride schemes to get cars out of city centres, congestion charge schemes, and the slowing of the expansion in out-of-town superstores and gradual rise in bus provision to edge-of-town ones. This as well as the slow growth in light rail networks and the rather more rapid growth in cycle paths are all positive steps.
But there is a long way to go yet, and projects are still being approved that are steps backwards rather than forwards. Plus most of the more useful improvements are in urban areas - rural areas are still seeing drops in bus services, and investment in roads with little consideration for pedestrians and cyclists, along with a gradual decline in local shops. This matched only against a growing cycle network that is more for leisure than for actually wanting to get from A to B, and a handful of traffic calming measures that are fought against by the over-powerful road lobby at every turn. Plus gradual improvements in rail services, but this is fairly insignificant as most of rural britain is completely unserved by rail and will remain that way.
 

LE Greys

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There are a few advantages to road vehicles that I'll admit to. On zoology studies for instance, there is no way to transport heavy equipment to a remote location other than by Land Rover. Then there's the problem of moving things like boats around without a navigable river. What tows the trailer?

Still, in terms of price, I'd say that driving was probably more expensive than an advance ticket, if you're talking about one person travelling alone. For a family of four (assuming both children under sixteen) the price trebles by rail, but only increases marginally by car. Not quite sure how to redress that one, but it is a problem.

Just playing devil's advocate for a minute.
 

Failed Unit

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Family and friends railcard helps. But it doesn't remove all the baggage the family may have which goes in the boot nicely!
 
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