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Is Open Access abstractive or does it genuinely plug gaps?

Transilien

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At least with Lumo west coast places like Milton Keynes, Nuneaton have direct Scottish services. Lockerbie, Whifflet, Greenfaulds, Larbert all have direct London services without the need to go Glasgow or Edinburgh to change. Preston is a crew change point so needed to be served
Direct services everywhere shouldn’t be the goal of the Railway though, that’s a reason why the UK has such a congested rail network. Frequent and reliable regular connections are better than a few direct trains per day as it allows flexibility for passengers and is operationally efficient. How many people actually travel from Nuneaton to Scotland and the other way around? Many Scottish people haven’t heard of that place!
 
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The Ham

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Direct services everywhere shouldn’t be the goal of the Railway though, that’s a reason why the UK has such a congested rail network. Frequent and reliable regular connections are better than a few direct trains per day as it allows flexibility for passengers and is operationally efficient. How many people actually travel from Nuneaton to Scotland and the other way around? Many Scottish people haven’t heard of that place!

Indeed, it's better to have (say) 4tph from Nuneaton (and around 10 other places) to a hub station and then 2tph to (say) Manchester, Glasgow and York with then 4tph from those hub stations to about a dozen local stations rather than 2tpd for each end point from Nuneaton to 20 different locations.

Whilst those two daily services might be 45 minutes faster, for much of the day the journey around either be longer or significantly harder.

However, with 4tph to a local hub commuting by train to a major town or to a city becomes easier and so also sees an increase in use which far outstrips the numbers who benefit from the long distance services being direct.
 

mike57

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Indeed, it's better to have (say) 4tph from Nuneaton (and around 10 other places) to a hub station and then 2tph to (say) Manchester, Glasgow and York with then 4tph from those hub stations to about a dozen local stations rather than 2tpd for each end point from Nuneaton to 20 different locations.

Whilst those two daily services might be 45 minutes faster, for much of the day the journey around either be longer or significantly harder.

However, with 4tph to a local hub commuting by train to a major town or to a city becomes easier and so also sees an increase in use which far outstrips the numbers who benefit from the long distance services being direct.
I agree that the regular service to a hub followed by onwards 'Inter City' Journey offers a more consistent journey time and is probably a better operating model, but there are people who will look for the 1 or 2 tpd through services, and tailor their travel plans to use them. People with mobility issues, loaded down with luggage or travelling with children may opt for the direct service.

The question is will those people adopt a different mode of travel if the direct service is withdrawn, and does offering a token though service come with any other penalties, if its at the start or end of the day making use of otherwise 'dead' time, or an occasional stop at a station the service would pass through anyway does it actually cause any other problems.
 

Bletchleyite

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Depends which one. Nuneaton clearly needs direct London services. Does a random west Glasgow suburban station? Clearly not, it needs a Glasgow service.

Yes, a few people specifically like these services, but they are probably more of a coach market than a rail market.

Hull and Bradford are probably different as they seem to be big enough to sustain a level of frequency - but only really those two. Even Shrewsbury seems to struggle when an easy connection per hour at Birmingham Intl is possible.

Lumo EC is duplicative so a bit different.

And I bet the Lumo WC service remains very quiet north of Preston, though those suburban stations may be useful for people going from Glasgow to London as "kiss and rides" based on the premise that most journeys are suburb to city centre.
 

NCT

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Conceptually a well designed national takt is preferable to a lot of disparate direct services.

Looking across Europe, it is generally more difficult for Open Access to establish themselves in countries with good, integrated timetable and fare structures.

The existence of Open Access usually reveals some failures of the state directed railway sector and this alone makes for a valuable market signal. Open Access is the one thing guarding against state sector complacency / conservatism.

Those who think that the state sector is by virtue competent / benevolent only if they could be protected from any form of competition need a reality check. Just look at SNCF and RENFE.
 

Dr Hoo

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Depends which one. Nuneaton clearly needs direct London services. Does a random west Glasgow suburban station? Clearly not, it needs a Glasgow service.

Yes, a few people specifically like these services, but they are probably more of a coach market than a rail market.

Hull and Bradford are probably different as they seem to be big enough to sustain a level of frequency - but only really those two. Even Shrewsbury seems to struggle when an easy connection per hour at Birmingham Intl is possible.

Lumo EC is duplicative so a bit different.

And I bet the Lumo WC service remains very quiet north of Preston, though those suburban stations may be useful for people going from Glasgow to London as "kiss and rides" based on the premise that most journeys are suburb to city centre.
It’s tempting to be dismissive about ‘a few Glasgow suburban stations’ but North Lanarkshire district has a population of well over 300,000.
Local stations in the area may have reasonable links to Central Glasgow but largely to Queen Street or Central Low Level. Not really very appealing interchange challenges for many.
 

The Ham

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I agree that the regular service to a hub followed by onwards 'Inter City' Journey offers a more consistent journey time and is probably a better operating model, but there are people who will look for the 1 or 2 tpd through services, and tailor their travel plans to use them. People with mobility issues, loaded down with luggage or travelling with children may opt for the direct service.

The question is will those people adopt a different mode of travel if the direct service is withdrawn, and does offering a token though service come with any other penalties, if its at the start or end of the day making use of otherwise 'dead' time, or an occasional stop at a station the service would pass through anyway does it actually cause any other problems.

Indeed, the point was more around if somewhere was being served by 60 trains a day it's better that they mostly are local to hub trains rather than being mostly long distance trains trying to serve a lot of different station pairings.

For a couple of limited number of 2tpd (so between 2 and 8 a day in total) services if they don't result in a noticeable reduction in the general frequency then that's reasonable.
 

Bletchleyite

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Those who think that the state sector is by virtue competent / benevolent only if they could be protected from any form of competition need a reality check. Just look at SNCF and RENFE.

Well, RENFE anyway. SNCF may not have ticketing policies to the taste of those here, but it is hard to say its long distance operations (to which competition at the point of use is relevant) are bad as such.

RENFE is rubbish generally, but that's what, one state operator out of the lot?
 

Some guy

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Depends which one. Nuneaton clearly needs direct London services. Does a random west Glasgow suburban station? Clearly not, it needs a Glasgow service.

Yes, a few people specifically like these services, but they are probably more of a coach market than a rail market.

Hull and Bradford are probably different as they seem to be big enough to sustain a level of frequency - but only really those two. Even Shrewsbury seems to struggle when an easy connection per hour at Birmingham Intl is possible.

Lumo EC is duplicative so a bit different.

And I bet the Lumo WC service remains very quiet north of Preston, though those suburban stations may be useful for people going from Glasgow to London as "kiss and rides" based on the premise that most journeys are suburb to city centre.
Lumo west coast is popular north of Preston. Very popular with passengers changing at Motherwell to go to Glasgow
 

Darandio

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Lumo west coast is popular north of Preston. Very popular with passengers changing at Motherwell to go to Glasgow

I'm surprised that data is already available other than anecdotal. I do believe you are working the services though?
 

johntea

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I guess your opinion will differ slightly depending on if you live near one of the more 'niche' stations that open access serve!

Pontefract Monkhill to London is great for me as my front door to Pontefract Monkhill by car is 10 minutes at most, 2 hours later I'm in London

Wakefield and/or Leeds achieve the same with slightly more travel time but it just feels a more relaxing journey starting/arriving in sleepy old Pontefract!

Either way the Grand Central Bradford - London service is always bustling with passengers but at just the right level where you'll probably get a seat without any issues, so it is clearly popular enough with folk
 

The Ham

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I guess your opinion will differ slightly depending on if you live near one of the more 'niche' stations that open access serve!

Pontefract Monkhill to London is great for me as my front door to Pontefract Monkhill by car is 10 minutes at most, 2 hours later I'm in London

Wakefield and/or Leeds achieve the same with slightly more travel time but it just feels a more relaxing journey starting/arriving in sleepy old Pontefract!

Either way the Grand Central Bradford - London service is always bustling with passengers but at just the right level where you'll probably get a seat without any issues, so it is clearly popular enough with folk

Indeed, likewise if the London - Southampton - Marchwood OAO service were to start (any discussion about if or if not is probably better suited to the thread about it) those living in Marcheood and Hook (circa 45 minutes vs 60 minutes) would like the fact that they would gain from a faster public transport journey time into London.

Likewise Hook gaining more services which connect to places south of Basingstoke without needing to change at Basingstoke, and a 3rd train in the hour every other hour (ish), would be useful to them.

As such the people from Marchwood and Hook would likely to be very happy for such a service to start.
 

Snow1964

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On the left, the view is very much that passenger open access should cease at the end of the current track access agreements with operations and staff rolled into GBR via TUPE.

This was clear in Wednesday's debate.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...1360-E0F8-4D80-B4B4-E9EF69FA9B39/RailwaysBill
This amendment was tabled by Rachael Maskell

This contribution was made by Navendu Mishra.

However, the government's response was

Lord Hendy gave a new written answer this week
Great Western Main Line: Competition

Lord Booth: [HL3002]
To ask His Majesty's Government what plans they have to allow competition for open access operators on the Great Western Railway route from Cornwall to London.

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill:
We are clear that there will continue to be a role for Open Access Operators in the reformed railway, providing innovation and choice for passengers. Access to the network is currently determined by the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) in accordance with its statutory duties, and the Department cannot direct ORR in its decision-making.

Under rail reform, this will change as Great British Railways (GBR) takes over responsibility for managing access to the network and ORR takes on a new role to hold GBR to account and ensure fairness and transparency for all operators. GBR’s role will include consideration of any future applications for Open Access services across the entire rail network, including on the Great Western Railway route.

Open Access Operators will continue to be able to propose new services, and, where these represent best use of the network and offer genuine benefits to passengers, we would expect GBR to grant access and enable competition.


So sounds like Open access should be granted where makes best use of the network and offers genuine benefits to passengers. It appears revenue abstraction is not listed (but might be ORR invented requirement, at least until GBR takes over)

I read that as available wherever there is network capacity, and the passenger benefits are better than what already exists (better presumably could cover : direct services without changing, more comfortable rolling stock, better facilities and catering, cheaper or more flexible fares, quicker services etc.)
 

Bald Rick

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Lord Hendy gave a new written answer this week



So sounds like Open access should be granted where makes best use of the network and offers genuine benefits to passengers. It appears revenue abstraction is not listed (but might be ORR invented requirement, at least until GBR takes over)

I read that as available wherever there is network capacity, and the passenger benefits are better than what already exists (better presumably could cover : direct services without changing, more comfortable rolling stock, better facilities and catering, cheaper or more flexible fares, quicker services etc.)

“… best use of the network…” could mean a lot of things.
 

35B

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“… best use of the network…” could mean a lot of things.
And will I suspect be used by DfT to mean “whatever we determine at the time” rather than being an objective test. It could well be remunerative for the lawyers.
 

NCT

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Lord Hendy gave a new written answer this week



So sounds like Open access should be granted where makes best use of the network and offers genuine benefits to passengers. It appears revenue abstraction is not listed (but might be ORR invented requirement, at least until GBR takes over)

I read that as available wherever there is network capacity, and the passenger benefits are better than what already exists (better presumably could cover : direct services without changing, more comfortable rolling stock, better facilities and catering, cheaper or more flexible fares, quicker services etc.)

That sounds a bit 'I'll take a politicians' weasel words to mean exactly my personal definition of "best"'.
 

MattRat

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Depends which one. Nuneaton clearly needs direct London services. Does a random west Glasgow suburban station? Clearly not, it needs a Glasgow service.
That would be true if London wasn't treated as the center of the universe. That's why Open Access to London exists, to fill that 'gap'.

Open Access is the symptom, not the cause. Treat the real cause, by making cities outside of London more important, and the Open Access operations from nowhere to London will naturally disappear. The 'gap' will disappear
 

Dr Hoo

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And don’t fixate on ‘cities’. Large towns such as Halifax, Hartlepool, those in populous South Lanarkshire, Nuneaton, Grimsby/ Cleethorpes and so on can benefit from good long distance links too, especially if several can be strung together.
 

Sorcerer

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Open access might be able to plug gaps with some services, but even that will have it's own limitations. Grand Central have London to Bradford and Sunderland, Hull Trains have London to Hull, Lumo has London to Edinburgh and Stirling, and Eurostar has London to Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam. The pattern here is that they are operating on high-yield intercity journeys involving the UK capital (and in Eurostar's case, the French, Belgian and Dutch ones too). It is highly likely we will see any open access operators wanting to plug gaps in rural services because that's simply not where the money is at.
 

35B

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Open access might be able to plug gaps with some services, but even that will have it's own limitations. Grand Central have London to Bradford and Sunderland, Hull Trains have London to Hull, Lumo has London to Edinburgh and Stirling, and Eurostar has London to Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam. The pattern here is that they are operating on high-yield intercity journeys involving the UK capital (and in Eurostar's case, the French, Belgian and Dutch ones too). It is highly likely we will see any open access operators wanting to plug gaps in rural services because that's simply not where the money is at.
Nor is it plausible to expect them to. The point, though, is that Open Access increases the total market for rail, rather than just taking a slice of someone else's cake.
 

Sorcerer

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Nor is it plausible to expect them to. The point, though, is that Open Access increases the total market for rail, rather than just taking a slice of someone else's cake.
I mean of course, that's why I'm kind of in two minds about it. On the one hand, Trenitalia and Italo's competition have made Italy's high-speed network better, and the Madrid-Barcelona route has given passengers four options between AVE, Avlo, Ouigo and Iryo. It can make passenger services better, but in principle I also believe railways are a public service first while open access will merely cherry-pick the most profitable routes. Having recently returned from Switzerland which practically has no open-access operations, competition isn't an absolute necessity for a better railway.
 

35B

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I mean of course, that's why I'm kind of in two minds about it. On the one hand, Trenitalia and Italo's competition have made Italy's high-speed network better, and the Madrid-Barcelona route has given passengers four options between AVE, Avlo, Ouigo and Iryo. It can make passenger services better, but in principle I also believe railways are a public service first while open access will merely cherry-pick the most profitable routes. Having recently returned from Switzerland which practically has no open-access operations, competition isn't an absolute necessity for a better railway.
In the real world of the UK, I'll put money in the OA basket over one marked "government making or letting the railway be good". I also don't fully buy into the view that, if the railway is a public good, the service must be publicly provided - that seems to blur categories.

That then comes back to the expectation of what competition can do - a lot of the hate for OA seems based on the idea that all they do is cherry pick, and to the detriment of the "public" railway.
 

Sorcerer

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In the real world of the UK, I'll put money in the OA basket over one marked "government making or letting the railway be good". I also don't fully buy into the view that, if the railway is a public good, the service must be publicly provided - that seems to blur categories.
The railway doesn't have to provide a direct service from London to everywhere, that would be practically impossible, but it should provide an easy enough access through connections and interchange at the very least. If you don't believe that a service must be provided because the railway is a public good, then what do you believe the railway is?

That then comes back to the expectation of what competition can do - a lot of the hate for OA seems based on the idea that all they do is cherry pick, and to the detriment of the "public" railway.
I don't believe it's a detriment if the state-owned operators aren't providing a service even if there is a market for it, but you can't really argue against the idea that OA operators are cherry picking. They all want a piece of the intercity or airport express market, but none of them want a piece of the regional and suburban rail lines. Competition on the railway is only competition for the most profitable high-yield routes.
 

35B

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The railway doesn't have to provide a direct service from London to everywhere, that would be practically impossible, but it should provide an easy enough access through connections and interchange at the very least. If you don't believe that a service must be provided because the railway is a public good, then what do you believe the railway is?


I don't believe it's a detriment if the state-owned operators aren't providing a service even if there is a market for it, but you can't really argue against the idea that OA operators are cherry picking. They all want a piece of the intercity or airport express market, but none of them want a piece of the regional and suburban rail lines. Competition on the railway is only competition for the most profitable high-yield routes.
Two separate issues. On cherry picking, it's simply a question of basic market economics. New services into a market encourage further demand, which (up to a point) benefits the market as a whole. The category error some make is in assuming that, because an OA has done this, it is costing the other operators.

On public good, the hill I'll die on is that it is the provision of a transport (not just rail) network that is a public good. The provision of the individual service is a private good - "the country" doesn't benefit from my journey, but it does benefit from my ability to make that journey. Neither need be government provided although, in practice, it may be most efficient for the network and/or the service to be government provided. This can be seen more clearly from the road network - the state provides the roads, but there is no suggestion that the journeys made on those roads are government controlled or provided.

This free market liberal doesn't see free market as an excuse for devil take the hindmost, in the model of American corporatism. The existence of a market relies on the ability of customers to make informed choices, and the existence of rules (a classic being weights and measures rules). In the context of rail, that may mean, for example, the use of certain timetable slots or requirements for inter-availability (and note that this latter is very poor on the "public" railway).

While rail is one mode among several, and competition is provided by those other modes, the railways have long had an issue with monopoly leading to rising prices and stagnating quality of service. I'd contend that the DfT controlled railway has demonstrated that vice, and that GBR is showing all the signs of making the worst features worse.
 

Snow1964

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I mean of course, that's why I'm kind of in two minds about it. On the one hand, Trenitalia and Italo's competition have made Italy's high-speed network better, and the Madrid-Barcelona route has given passengers four options between AVE, Avlo, Ouigo and Iryo. It can make passenger services better,
There is nothing like a bit of competition on quality front, which of course tends to weed out the rubbish offering as poor quality or value

but in principle I also believe railways are a public service first while open access will merely cherry-pick the most profitable routes.
To be fair, some of the current nationalised operators do cherry picking too, putting better, or newer, or faster rolling stock on some routes, or giving better catering on selected routes, even beating those of longer duration than some others they operate.

As an example, there is no logical reason (apart from selective cherry picking) why a London Lincoln service, gets First class with free food, but Bournemouth (whose population is almost double) gets no food, similar duration (about 100 minutes) both DfT Operator administered. It's blatant selective cherry picking by route.

Having recently returned from Switzerland which practically has no open-access operations, competition isn't an absolute necessity for a better railway.
Switzerland is different, it is happy to spend to sort bottlenecks, or add spurs, tunnels and flyovers so service patterns can reflect 21st century population, leisure and workflows.

Many UK operators still have services that are similar to decades ago, even if population has relocated, or work or leisure destinations different. And seem to be stuck in a rut, with no intention of swapping a service from A to B and C to D to one that is A to D and B to C even if that's now popular Route.

I am all for Open Access filling in gaps, if the State can not be bothered to serve them. Not reckless duplication, but reasonable expanding into unfilled routings, thus increasing overall revenue where competition is currently no journey by train because too difficult / slow / requires changes etc
 

61653 HTAFC

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Hull (and East Riding), Sunderland and Bradford are hardly ‘nowhere’.
They're also not exactly "cherry-picking the most profitable bits" (as an MP was quoted as saying a couple of months back on this thread) either though.
On the Bradford side of things, would LNER have increased their Bradford services without Grand Central demonstrating that there was untapped demand first?
 

The Pelican

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An Open Access operation is more plausibly good the less valuble it's most valuble section of path is- any OA operators ignoring London would be impressive.

Similarly, an OA operator funding work to allow more paths will show that they are really leaving the rest of the network better off- if the Marchwood proposal had instead included funding for a new London Terminal for some SWML trains, it would have really added to things.

(I quite like the new LUMO Stirling route, which at least revives what used to be a popular WCML route in the distant past).
 

Sorcerer

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Two separate issues. On cherry picking, it's simply a question of basic market economics. New services into a market encourage further demand, which (up to a point) benefits the market as a whole. The category error some make is in assuming that, because an OA has done this, it is costing the other operators.
Maybe it could cost other operators in the sense that the paths the OA operators are using could've been used by the state-owned operator, but this doesn't really hold much water given there wasn't much stopping them from using them previously.
On public good, the hill I'll die on is that it is the provision of a transport (not just rail) network that is a public good. The provision of the individual service is a private good - "the country" doesn't benefit from my journey, but it does benefit from my ability to make that journey. Neither need be government provided although, in practice, it may be most efficient for the network and/or the service to be government provided. This can be seen more clearly from the road network - the state provides the roads, but there is no suggestion that the journeys made on those roads are government controlled or provided.
I can sort of see where you're coming from here; that while the provision of transport is a public good, whether the railway is publicly or privately owned and operated is a different matter entirely. I just lean towards state ownership because if railways are a public good, there comes a fundamental tension between that reality and the fact a private company's top priority is delivering a return on investments to it's shareholders.

While rail is one mode among several, and competition is provided by those other modes, the railways have long had an issue with monopoly leading to rising prices and stagnating quality of service. I'd contend that the DfT controlled railway has demonstrated that vice, and that GBR is showing all the signs of making the worst features worse.
I would personally put this down to cultural and institutional attitudes rather than the state having a monopoly. Britain and the Anglosphere in general (from my point of view) seem to think of railways as costly relics of the 19th century, partly evident by the DfT's desire to reduce subsidy and shift the cost onto the user rather than the taxpayer. It's not helped by the fact we're trying to run a 21st century operation on 19th century infrastructure without the political will to build new railways.

There is nothing like a bit of competition on quality front, which of course tends to weed out the rubbish offering as poor quality or value
Which is why I'm not inherently against open access operators even though I have my own reservations about them in principle.

To be fair, some of the current nationalised operators do cherry picking too, putting better, or newer, or faster rolling stock on some routes, or giving better catering on selected routes, even beating those of longer duration than some others they operate.

As an example, there is no logical reason (apart from selective cherry picking) why a London Lincoln service, gets First class with free food, but Bournemouth (whose population is almost double) gets no food, similar duration (about 100 minutes) both DfT Operator administered. It's blatant selective cherry picking by route.
I would certainly prefer a more standardised level of service but I can sort of see why an intercity service to London with many business passengers might get better first class provision than one to Bournemouth which may be more catered towards tourists. This lack of standardised service is a legacy of taking different private operators in house and I hope in the long-term GBR changes it to be more consistent.

Switzerland is different, it is happy to spend to sort bottlenecks, or add spurs, tunnels and flyovers so service patterns can reflect 21st century population, leisure and workflows.

Many UK operators still have services that are similar to decades ago, even if population has relocated, or work or leisure destinations different. And seem to be stuck in a rut, with no intention of swapping a service from A to B and C to D to one that is A to D and B to C even if that's now popular Route.

I am all for Open Access filling in gaps, if the State can not be bothered to serve them. Not reckless duplication, but reasonable expanding into unfilled routings, thus increasing overall revenue where competition is currently no journey by train because too difficult / slow / requires changes etc
I think this just comes back to my earlier point of institutional attitudes. While Switzerland seems to be happy to treat railways as a major pulse of the nation's entire national infrastructure, Britain seems to think railways should pay for themselves and that they exist to compete with road and air travel rather than provide their own transport niche. Open access filling gaps is arguably a symptom of this problem.
 

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