Is nationalisation now inevitable?

[Samuel88]

With so many franchises failing, will it reach the point where the rail companies have to be brought back under public control simply because no one will touch them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

While it's not a very Tory thing to do, Bojo is a bit of a populist, and it is hard to conceive a political policy which would gain more support from all quarters. And it could basically be done free of charge by just vesting the TOCs in the public sector as they expire.

And from December there won't be an EU reason not to do it either...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

With so many franchises failing, will it reach the point where the rail companies have to be brought back under public control simply because no one will touch them?

Yes - imho

While it's not a very Tory thing to do, Bojo is a bit of a populist, and it is hard to conceive a political policy which would gain more support from all quarters. And it could basically be done free of charge by just vesting the TOCs in the public sector as they expire.

And from December there won't be an EU reason not to do it either...

Exactly. I think it is inevitable. Don't want to get too political but wasn't that Jeremy Corbyn and Labour's suggested way of doing it?

 

[StephenHunter]

Labour wanted to do it when they expired, which would take over a decade... the Tories are arguably making them do it faster by excessive premium payments...

 

[crablab]

While it's not a very Tory thing to do, Bojo is a bit of a populist,

A cynic might say they are trying to do it in a haphazard and ultimately disastrous way so they can satisfy all the calls for nationalisation and then turn around and point at the failure they have created, when it goes wrong.

I don't think the Conservatives would ever properly commit to nationalisation.

 

[xotGD]

We could end up with a fully nationalised system, but still operating as independent 'franchises ' (for want of a better word) rather than as a single integrated network.

That would not be the right way to do it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Define "nationalisation" and how it would work.
Ownership is not the issue, it's organisation and management.
Don't forget freight, open access and rolling stock.

 

[DJ_K666]

While it's not a very Tory thing to do, Bojo is a bit of a populist, and it is hard to conceive a political policy which would gain more support from all quarters. And it could basically be done free of charge by just vesting the TOCs in the public sector as they expire.

And from December there won't be an EU reason not to do it either...

What about repealing the Railways Act 1993 and removing the law that allowed the railways to be privatised?
Probably illegal but there you go. In my view if we're going to renationalise it should be done properly by reinstating the BRB and having it absorb Network Rail, recreating BR and then have that take over the TOCs as their contracts expire.

Compulaory purchase of the former railway works sites and their rebuilding would allow BREL to be recreated. I really can't say who should make the dreaded BR sandwiches though.

Now about that nice dark blue livery. Monastral blue isn't it...? I'm guessing you can all tell where my interest lies lol

Seriously however they should do it properly or not at all. I was dead set against privatisation at the time, and I remain against it now, I believe it was the wrong idea done the wrong way so now there's 25 years of s**te to deal with to get the railways working properly again. What they really need to do is sort out the fares and bring back the Cheap Day Return instead of all this off peak, advance super off peak malarkey. Just keep it simple.

 

[crablab]

What they really need to do is sort out the fares and bring back the Cheap Day Return instead of all this off peak, advance super off peak malarkey. Just keep it simple.

Why can this not be done in a privatized system?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

What about repealing the Railways Act 1993 and removing the law that allowed the railways to be privatised?
Probably illegal but there you go. In my view if we're going to renationalise it should be done properly by reinstating the BRB and having it absorb Network Rail, recreating BR and then have that take over the TOCs as their contracts expire.

Compulaory purchase of the former railway works sites and their rebuilding would allow BREL to be recreated. I really can't say who should make the dreaded BR sandwiches though.

Now about that nice dark blue livery. Monastral blue isn't it...? I'm guessing you can all tell where my interest lies lol

Seriously however they should do it properly or not at all. I was dead set against privatisation at the time, and I remain against it now, I believe it was the wrong idea done the wrong way so now there's 25 years of s**te to deal with to get the railways working properly again. What they really need to do is sort out the fares and bring back the Cheap Day Return instead of all this off peak, advance super off peak malarkey. Just keep it simple.

I too was opposed to privatisation of British Rail but mainly because I saw that it was not being done in a sensible way. Had John Major's Government simply sold the entire organisation as a going concern at the proper market price I might have supported the idea. I have not changed my mind about that. However British Rail no longer exists and that huge grouping of experience and expertise is gone. Nationalisation by itself will not undo that change.

There is a case for saying we need to work steadily towards creating a new organisation equal in knowledge and ability to the old B. R. while also taking day-to-day control of our railway away from the DfT, but nationalisation alone will not get the job done. At the recent election Labour advocated nationalisation but had nothing to say about the DfT's hopeless and consistent inadequacy.

 

[158756]

Define "nationalisation" and how it would work.
Ownership is not the issue, it's organisation and management.
Don't forget freight, open access and rolling stock.

For rolling stock the simplest thing would probably just be for the government to own all new stock and only buy the old if the sums work out. Open access is tolerated by various other nationalised systems, and with the lack of capacity on intercity routes probably won't grow very much from its current small size. I doubt the freight operators are worth very much nowadays - a nationalised freight operator would need to keep the competitiveness of the private sector, but eliminate the wasteful duplication and self-harming competition between rail operators characteristic of the current system.

 

[tbtc]

With so many franchises failing, will it reach the point where the rail companies have to be brought back under public control simply because no one will touch them?

People will touch them, you just have to give them something reasonable (and, in the last few years, the Government have been trying to demand too much of TOCs, the needle went too far)

I think they'll continue with a part private system (the system has only ever been part privatised - the 2010s version has the DfT and a publicly owned Network Rail controlling most things), it's just that they'll have to balance the risk/reward situation (e.g. Stagecoach wouldn't bid for a seven/ten year franchise if it meant them taking on the pension liabilities - and a change in life expectancy could mean having to find tens of millions of pounds to cover the increased liabilities for thousands of people who were members prior to Stagecoach taking over management of the franchise).

So it may be more like a "concession" model, where there's less financial risk to the TOC (but maybe with sufficient incentive to get them to check tickets thoroughly, rather than just cash that juicy management fee and turn a blind eye to fare dodgers), but I think there'll be some kind of "private" involvement.

Why can this not be done in a privatized system?

That's a great question, and one that can be applied to many areas of the railways.

A lot of people want "nationalisation" because that seems to be a goal in itself - e.g. Corbyn was banging on about it for a long time without explaining *why* it was so desirable - e.g. if the justification was cheaper/simpler fares then there's no reason why that can't be imposed on current TOCs.

Having to splash out on new shirts for staff every seven years (when a franchise changes hands) is not sufficient reason to nationalise, but most of the other reasons used to try to justify nationalisation are things that the DfT could force now by clicking their fingers (e.g. if holding connections for branch line trains was that important then it could be a demand of all franchises).

 

[Dr Day]

Many confuse 'nationalisation' with the removal of the current fragmentation with multiple operators and ticket retailers.

British Rail in the early 1990s still had a wide range of peak/off peak fares (including train-specific advance Apex, Rovers/Rangers, railcards etc) to manage demand/maximise revenue, and ORCATS to allocate revenue between 'operators' (although there weren't quite so many of them in those days, and although there was some competition, it wasn't as significant as it is today). Demand/supply and revenue still need managing, regardless of ownership.

It will be interesting to see how fragmented (from a passenger perspective) the railway remains assuming some of the expected outcomes of the Williams review are implemented.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Many confuse 'nationalisation' with the removal of the current fragmentation with multiple operators and ticket retailers.

And for that matter, 'nationalisation' with 'well run', and 'privatisation' with 'badly run'.

 

[crablab]

And for that matter, 'nationalisation' with 'well run', and 'privatisation' with 'badly run'.

I think this is partly due to comparisons with European state run companies, some of whom have franchises in the UK.

This seems particularly ironic as the franchises are lambasted, whilst the operations in the country of origin are praised.

 

[DJ_K666]

Why can this not be done in a privatized system?

No reason it can't, hence whu I started with the "seriously" . I think the thing that gets up a lot of people's noses is any profits being used to subsidise cheaper fares abroad. That has to stop, for a start.

 

[Meerkat]

No reason it can't, hence whu I started with the "seriously" . I think the thing that gets up a lot of people's noses is any profits being used to subsidise cheaper fares abroad. That has to stop, for a start.

Why? Do you only buy British products from British companies or is this yet another bizarre value system that only affects railways?

 

[bramling]

With so many franchises failing, will it reach the point where the rail companies have to be brought back under public control simply because no one will touch them?

It *might* end up going that way, but I wouldn't say it's inevitable.

Rail privatisation was of course another thing messed up by John Major, who now seems to be regarded by young people as something of a legend. Those who actually remember the 1990s remember a slightly different story!

 

[Railwaysceptic]

. . . John Major, who now seems to be regarded by young people as something of a legend. !

Really? I'm more out of touch with young people than I realised!

 

[Meerkat]

Really? I'm more out of touch with young people than I realised!

John Major was pro-EU so loads of kids suddenly found out who this grey man was!
John Major left the country in the best state it’s been in for years didnt he? Did all the hard graft and Blair reaped the rewards.

 

[gg1]

What they really need to do is sort out the fares and bring back the Cheap Day Return instead of all this off peak, advance super off peak malarkey. Just keep it simple.

The roots of that predate privatisation by at least 10 years. Late 80s BR had open returns, blue savers and white savers for InterCity services (the latter two broadly comparable to super off-peak and off-peak respectively) with the added complication that rules differed depending on the day of the week, IIRC blue savers weren't valid at all on Fridays. In addition this only applied to return tickets, for singles the only option was an open ticket, resulting in the ridiculous situation whereby if you wanted to make a single journey off peak, it often worked out cheaper to buy a return ticket and throw the return portion in the bin than buy a single. I started travelling on my own long distance about 1993ish and at that time I don't recall day returns existing at all for IC services either.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Yeah, it's probably going to happen soon but not be proper. They'll all just be run by the operator of last resort (aka the DafT)

Rail privatisation was of course another thing messed up by John Major, who now seems to be regarded by young people as something of a legend.

I'm under 20 and I see him as quite the opposite.

 

[hexagon789]

With so many franchises failing, will it reach the point where the rail companies have to be brought back under public control simply because no one will touch them?

I think change in the present system is inevitable, but I'm not convinced that that will result in nationalisation by default.

John Major, who now seems to be regarded by young people as something of a legend.

Definitely not!

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Aside from the open access operators like Grand Central, all passenger rail operations are already nationalised. The state has never privatised these, instead retaining ownership and granting exclusive operator rights in a fixed contract.

As an example, Northern has been operated by Abellio and Arriva. The owner has always been the DfT. If I let my house exclusively to you to live in, I remain it's owner...

 

[StephenHunter]

I think this is partly due to comparisons with European state run companies, some of whom have franchises in the UK.

This seems particularly ironic as the franchises are lambasted, whilst the operations in the country of origin are praised.

Indeed... and any study of those actual operations shows a very mixed picture.