Is Moor St to Marylebone via High Wycombe ticket valid if using XC train?

[TSR :D]

Apparently, one of my friend told me it is valid from Birmingham New St to Banbury only if the ticket has "via High Wycombe" on it.

I was wondering how can it be valid if a XC train (to Reading) does not pass High Wycombe?

Assuming it is valid, what about the 3-mile rule which states any other route can be taken if it's less than 3 mile longer than the shortest route. Is this correct? If so, does it mean only XC trains via Solihull instead of Birmingham International and Coventry is valid?

 

[Eagle]

What he means is it's valid to take an XC train from New Street to Banbury (via either route, they're both permitted) and then change to a Chiltern train to Marylebone there. Thus satisfying the "via Wycombe" condition.

 

[LexyBoy]

The routeing applies to the whole journey, not the trains you may use. New St - Banbury - Marylebone satisfies the "Via High Wycombe" condition, it doesn't matter which operator you use. Likewise Wolverhampton-London Via High Wycombe doesn't require you to take a through train via HW (luckily!).

There's no need to use the 3 mile rule as both routes out of New Street are mapped. For routed tickets, you take all of the mapped routes (and those within 3 miles of the shortest) and discard those which don't satisfy the routeing to give your list of permitted routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Apparently, one of my friend told me it is valid from Birmingham New St to Banbury only if the ticket has "via High Wycombe" on it.

This is ambiguous. I answered it reading it as "valid from Birmingham New St on XC only as far as Banbury", which is true.

Alternatively it could be read as "only valid from Birmingham New St to Banbury if the ticket is marked "via High Wycombe", otherwise it is not valid". This is not correct, if marked "Any Permitted" it is valid on XC to Banbury thence to Marylebone, or XC to Reading then Paddington.

 

[TSR :D]

What he means is it's valid to take an XC train from New Street to Banbury (via either route, they're both permitted) and then change to a Chiltern train to Marylebone there. Thus satisfying the "via Wycombe" condition.

Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks.

The routeing applies to the whole journey, not the trains you may use. New St - Banbury - Marylebone satisfies the "Via High Wycombe" condition, it doesn't matter which operator you use. Likewise Wolverhampton-London Via High Wycombe doesn't require you to take a through train via HW (luckily!).

There's no need to use the 3 mile rule as both routes out of New Street are mapped. For routed tickets, you take all of the mapped routes (and those within 3 miles of the shortest) and discard those which don't satisfy the routeing to give your list of permitted routes.

Just to be clear, on the routeing guide, the permitted routes are in map EB, GC and RB+RG. If I look at map EB, I see there are no trains that pass High Wycombe, however on map GC, I see trains passing High Wycombe. So, it shows that I can either go via Warwick or Coventry. On RB+RG map, it shows I can also go to Paddington if destination on the ticket is titled London Stations instead of Marylebone only if I change the train at South Ruislip.

This is ambiguous. I answered it reading it as "valid from Birmingham New St on XC only as far as Banbury", which is true.

Alternatively it could be read as "only valid from Birmingham New St to Banbury if the ticket is marked "via High Wycombe", otherwise it is not valid". This is not correct, if marked "Any Permitted" it is valid on XC to Banbury thence to Marylebone, or XC to Reading then Paddington.

I think he meant if the ticket was via High Wycombe instead of Chiltern Only (As this was what we were discussing about earlier).

 

[LexyBoy]

On RB+RG map, it shows I can also go to Paddington if destination on the ticket is titled London Stations instead of Marylebone only if I change the train at South Ruislip.

As far as I can see, only via Reading is permitted (common routeing point between RB and RG). South Ruislip does not appear on RB, the furthest the Chiltern line goes is Aylesbury.

I think he meant if the ticket was via High Wycombe instead of Chiltern Only (As this was what we were discussing about earlier).

Unless something has changed, Chiltern Only tickets should not be issued as they are a fudge meant for Chiltern's e-tickets (another reason to distrust such novelties). Both routeings would have London Terminals as destination though.

 

[Brucey]

It is also possible to use Virgin between Coventry/Birmingham International and Birmingham New Street. You'll rarely be able to use one on a Virgin service without getting some comment about the routeing from the train manager.

On RB+RG map, it shows I can also go to Paddington if destination on the ticket is titled London Stations instead of Marylebone only if I change the train at South Ruislip.

There is only one train per weekday from South Ruislip to Paddington, and no service at the weekend, otherwise you'd have to use London Underground from South Ruislip. See my recent thread on changing between NR/LU at the Ruislips for a discussion of the validity of this.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Occasionally during WCML blockades one can take a Virgin train from Wolverhampton/Birmingham New Street/Coventry to London Euston, via High Wycombe their TMs really do not like this

 

[yorkie]

Apparently, one of my friend told me it is valid from Birmingham New St to Banbury only if the ticket has "via High Wycombe" on it.

Birmingham to London is valid via Banbury (this is the shortest route, so you don't even need to consult the Routeing Guide).

The "Any Permitted" ticket additionally allows travel via Reading or Milton Keynes, as well as via High Wycombe.

I was wondering how can it be valid if a XC train (to Reading) does not pass High Wycombe?

The route from London to Birmingham via High Wycombe goes through Banbury, so yes, London - High Wycombe - Banbury - Birmingham is the route you are required to take.

You may take any operator on this route (see NRCoC Condition 10).

Assuming it is valid, what about the 3-mile rule which states any other route can be taken if it's less than 3 mile longer than the shortest route. Is this correct?

Yes, the Shortest route rule does allow journeys up to 3 miles longer, without any need to consult the Routeing Guide.

If so, does it mean only XC trains via Solihull instead of Birmingham International and Coventry is valid?

To see if travel is valid on the route London - High Wycombe - Banbury - Coventry - Birmingham, as this is more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, you need to consult the Routeing Guide, which shows that London-Birmingham is valid on these maps:

• EB
• GC
• RG+RB

In this case, map GC clearly shows the route London - High Wycombe - Banbury - Coventry - Birmingham as a permitted route.


Tickets routed via High Wycombe effectively rule out using maps EB or RG+RB.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On RB+RG map, it shows I can also go to Paddington if destination on the ticket is titled London Stations instead of Marylebone only if I change the train at South Ruislip.

With the possible exception of certain promotional fares, the destination would be London Terminals.

Map combination RB+RG does not show a route via South Ruislip. But it does show a route via Reading & Oxford.

The route via South Ruislip is shown on map GC. This is the same route as via High Wycombe.

The Routeing Guide maps do not in any way indicate whether or not a change of train is required.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Tickets routed via High Wycombe are a Chiltern proxy as they are the only operator. Between Banbury and Leamington going to Birmingham or beyond, there are alternative routes usually at the same price, one (Chiltern) via Solihull to Moor Street or Snow Hill and the other (XC) via Coventry to New Street. If travelling to or from destinations beyond Birmingham this could be an advantage if you wanted to avoid the walk between Moor Street and New Street. Whilst Chiltern (and XC) offer Advance fares for specific trains, there isn't generally a "Chiltern only" fare from Banbury northwards.

Before 1970, it would have been possible to reach Paddington via Bourne End and Maidenhead. Back when, 1950s maybe, using Uxbridge stations would also have been possible.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Tickets routed via High Wycombe are a Chiltern proxy as they are the only operator.

Of course, the advantage of the fares being routed "via High Wycombe" rather than "Chiltern only", is that it's possible to excess them for use on West Coast to/from Euston.

 

[yorkie]

Tickets routed via High Wycombe are a Chiltern proxy as they are the only operator.

I don't see it that way. There is nothing different about 'via High Wycombe' tickets to any other routed ticket, such as 'via Hebden Bridge' or 'via Burnley' being priced by Northern.

Operator-specific tickets have to state the restriction on the ticket (NRCoC Condition 10) and have very different rules and cannot (officially) be excessed to allow travel on another operator. That is a very different situation and it does not apply here.

 

[TSR :D]

It is also possible to use Virgin between Coventry/Birmingham International and Birmingham New Street. You'll rarely be able to use one on a Virgin service without getting some comment about the routeing from the train manager.

There is only one train per weekday from South Ruislip to Paddington, and no service at the weekend, otherwise you'd have to use London Underground from South Ruislip. See my recent thread on changing between NR/LU at the Ruislips for a discussion of the validity of this.

Is this you're talking about? If so, it sounds like something I should try, thanks.

Occasionally during WCML blockades one can take a Virgin train from Wolverhampton/Birmingham New Street/Coventry to London Euston, via High Wycombe their TMs really do not like this

If it's valid, what can they do about it?

Birmingham to London is valid via Banbury (this is the shortest route, so you don't even need to consult the Routeing Guide).

The "Any Permitted" ticket additionally allows travel via Reading or Milton Keynes, as well as via High Wycombe.

The route from London to Birmingham via High Wycombe goes through Banbury, so yes, London - High Wycombe - Banbury - Birmingham is the route you are required to take.

You may take any operator on this route (see NRCoC Condition 10).

Yes, the Shortest route rule does allow journeys up to 3 miles longer, without any need to consult the Routeing Guide.

To see if travel is valid on the route London - High Wycombe - Banbury - Coventry - Birmingham, as this is more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, you need to consult the Routeing Guide, which shows that London-Birmingham is valid on these maps:

• EB
• GC
• RG+RB

In this case, map GC clearly shows the route London - High Wycombe - Banbury - Coventry - Birmingham as a permitted route.


Tickets routed via High Wycombe effectively rule out using maps EB or RG+RB.




With the possible exception of certain promotional fares, the destination would be London Terminals.

Map combination RB+RG does not show a route via South Ruislip. But it does show a route via Reading & Oxford.

The route via South Ruislip is shown on map GC. This is the same route as via High Wycombe.

The Routeing Guide maps do not in any way indicate whether or not a change of train is required.

I think I'd made a mistake reading the maps somewhere then. So, it would be valid going into Paddington if I used a train from Greenford instead of South Ruislip? But, none of Chiltern train stop at there, so I would have to resort to using London Underground. Does validity of national tickets cover London underground if it follows the permitted route?

 

[maniacmartin]

Does validity of national tickets cover London underground if it follows the permitted route?

Not unless they're in the list of interavailable routes

 

[yorkie]

If it's valid, what can they do about it?

What can they do with passengers who hold valid tickets that they don't like?

Well... they can make your journey very unpleasant, make false accusations and allegations, ask you to pay more money, take down your name & address, call BTP, arrange for an incorrect bill/prosecution letter to be sent

East Coast have a guard who is particularly notorious for this sort of thing. Despite several legitimate complaints, he is still a guard though.

Such incidents are very rare, as the vast majority of Guards and RPIs will accept valid tickets.

I think I'd made a mistake reading the maps somewhere then. So, it would be valid going into Paddington if I used a train from Greenford instead of South Ruislip? But, none of Chiltern train stop at there, so I would have to resort to using London Underground.

You may need an additional ticket to cover the South Ruislip to Guildford section on LU.

Does validity of national tickets cover London underground if it follows the permitted route?

Only if it's an inter-available route.

 

[island]

It is perfectly valid to use a London Terminals to Birmingham Stns route via High Wycombe on multiple trains and to any of the members of the Birmingham Stns group as long as you pass through High Wycombe on your journey. For example, you may travel London Marylebone to Leamington Spa on Chiltern, Leamington Spa to Birmingham Intl on CrossCountry, and Birmingham Intl to Birmingham N St on Virgin Trains.

Anybody stating otherwise is simply wrong.

 

[tractakid]

Could also use a bit of Arriva Trains Wales! Would they get any revenue from this ticket?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Could also use a bit of Arriva Trains Wales! Would they get any revenue from this ticket?

Probably not on a "Birmingham Stations" one, but I would imagine they do on the longer distance ones like Shrewsbury and Wrexham.

 

[calc7]

And FGW between Kings Sutton and Banbury; and LM on various legs in the Brum area.

 

[Brucey]

It has been changed in the new version of the Routeing Guide, but these tickets were previously valid on the old map CS, which permitted travel via. Coventry, Nuneaton, Leciester, Nottingham, Derby and Lichfield.

NOTE: This route is no longer permitted in the new Routeing Guide

 

[MarlowDonkey]

It has been changed in the new version of the Routeing Guide, but these tickets were previously valid on the old map CS, which permitted travel via. Coventry, Nuneaton, Leciester, Nottingham, Derby and Lichfield.

NOTE: This route is no longer permitted in the new Routeing Guide

I have been looking at High Wycombe to Hinckley and back at weekends. Because of connections, the quickest route there is Wycombe to Leamington, Leamington to Coventry, Coventry to Nuneaton and Nuneaton to Hinckley. On the way back it's Hinckley to Birmingham and Birmingham to Wycombe. There's no return fare. A possible split is a Return Wycombe to Birmingham plus Singles Coventry to Hinckley and Hinckley to Birmingham. Advances can be available for some parts of the journey, for example changing to XC at Banbury.

 

[John @ home]

I have been looking at High Wycombe to Hinckley and back at weekends. ... There's no return fare.

I don't agree that there's no return fare suitable for High Wycombe to Hinckley outward via Bedworth and return via Birmingham. The High Wycombe to Hinckley return route Not Via London is suitable, at £92 Anytime Return or £50.10 Off-Peak Return valid on any train after 0930 Mon-Fri.

The outward leg via Bedworth is valid because it's the shortest route by rail.

According to the Network Rail timetable, this is the shortest route:

Shortest route from High Wycombe to Hinckley (85.75 miles)
High Wycombe 0, Saunderton 5, Princes Risborough 8.25, Haddenham & Thame Parkway 14, Bicester North 27, Kings Sutton 37.5, Banbury 41, Leamington Spa 61, Coventry 70.5, Bedworth 76.75, Nuneaton 80.5, Hinckley 85.75.

http://www.bukitlawang.com/routes/routes.aspx

The return leg via Birmingham can be made by a mapped Permitted Route using map combination SM+BP. The journey planners show plenty journey opportunities if set "Via Bedworth" or "Via Birmingham" as appropriate.

 

[Eagle]

NOTE: This route is no longer permitted in the new Routeing Guide

I have a suspicion that may be my fault, because of this thread I posted publicly in my more naive days...

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The High Wycombe to Hinckley return route Not Via London is suitable, at £92 Anytime Return or £50.10 Off-Peak Return valid on any train after 0930 Mon-Fri.

Just the plain input of Wycombe to Hinckley on the National Rail enquiries travelling out on Saturday morning and back on Sunday afternoon, will show the route there via Coventry etc. and the route back via Birmingham and quoting the £ 50.10 fare as cheapest. What it won't do is indicate that the £ 50.10 fare is valid via Birmingham on the way back. Ironically if you do split, it can be cheaper, as there's also a Super Off Peak Return fare for Wycombe to Birmingham.