Wallsendmag
Established Member
Neither of us work or LNER curently so thats why we don't go into detail.
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Is LNER Twitter correct?
- Thread starter basfordlad
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basfordlad
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Thanks everyone . This discussion went in an interesting direction.
I will simply hold fire for now
I will simply hold fire for now
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bcarmicle
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My point was that saying two things are both risky does not mean that they are of equal risk.
I am not sure what is meant by the extended booking horizon, but in general, I would book tickets if the price were acceptable to me without consideration of whether the price might increase or decrease in future for the same journey. I also recognise that other people will have different criteria as to how they book tickets, and that the OP is entirely entitled to try and buy tickets when the price is lowest.
I am afraid I do not see how two events being independent has any bearing on whether their probability is similar, especially given we are trying to define what a gamble is, which is a question of linguistical interpretation, not of mathematics. Saying something is a gamble does not confer any particular probability on that event.
None of this minutae really matters; the point is that LNER do have a habit of releasing more expensive fares - typically exclusively through their own website - at often higher prices, beyond the usual booking horizon. LNER do not admit that cheaper fares may be released nearer the time (though all retail channels, including ones which often undercut LNER for longer distance journeys) and, when asked, provide responses which suggest that booking now will provide the best price.
What LNER claim isn't true, we know it isn't true, and I've witnessed this happen on multiple occasions.
If anyone wants to say that booking these fares beyond the usual booking horizon is a "gamble" or not is neither here nor there; LNER certainly aren't prepared to admit it's a anything of the sort, and want people to believe that the price is the best possible price that will be released.
The correct answer to the question was posted by me in post #2.
Post #6 onwards added some unnecessary confusion.
If two events are inter-related, the probability of one outcome affects the other, and vice versa.
The options here are buy a ticket now or wait. If the price goes down, the customer loses if they buy now and wins if they wait. If the price goes up, the customer wins if they buy now and loses if they wait. Therefore each probability is whatever is left of the other outcome.
You may be. I'm not sure anyone else is. Haywain was using the word to relate to this specific example, not set out general theories. Perhaps they could have expressed it in terms of game theory rather than gambling, but does the linguistic difference really matter?
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On it's own, no, of course it doesn't. But when you're replying to a specific comment about risk vs reward in a way that says two things are "a gamble" that obviously does confer some probability. Perhaps you've missed some important context from the quotes, perhaps you're just trying to distract from the actual point, I'm unsure? So at this point, I'll draw us back to the actual question here, which is the following claim:
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The agent indicated that prices were "live" and could go down later without there being any compensation. The OP has clearly not acted upon the totality of the information provided to his or her detriment.
In a hypothetical situation where the agent had said there would be no further cheaper fares released later - which is not what happened here when you read the whole conversation - and the OP had relied upon that information and purchased a ticket, and then later on cheaper fares were released contrary to the original assurance that they wouldn't be, then that should have provided the enforcement body, the ORR, with grounds to consider opening a criminal investigation into misselling. But that isn't what actually happened here - a response was taken out of context from a conversation where two parties were talking across each other and confused.
In a hypothetical situation where the agent had said there would be no further cheaper fares released later - which is not what happened here when you read the whole conversation - and the OP had relied upon that information and purchased a ticket, and then later on cheaper fares were released contrary to the original assurance that they wouldn't be, then that should have provided the enforcement body, the ORR, with grounds to consider opening a criminal investigation into misselling. But that isn't what actually happened here - a response was taken out of context from a conversation where two parties were talking across each other and confused.
LNER certainly want people to book earlier, and not wait, and they want people to think the price is only going to go up:
www.lner.co.uk
It is actually totally normal for the prices to go down, from the high price of the the extended booking horizon fares, to the lower priced fares that get released at the normal booking horizon; LNER don't want to admit this.
At the end of the day, people are entitled to their opinions about whether or not LNER should be acting this way; we are not all going to agree.
Advance tickets | LNER
Cheaper tickets, same great journey. Book further in advance on the LNER website and app than anywhere else.
They do have this weasely get-out clause:
However it's not "occasional" and I don't think this gets them out of the statement that they want people to read prominently, which is that people should book earlier.
It is actually totally normal for the prices to go down, from the high price of the the extended booking horizon fares, to the lower priced fares that get released at the normal booking horizon; LNER don't want to admit this.
At the end of the day, people are entitled to their opinions about whether or not LNER should be acting this way; we are not all going to agree.
is it worth going via Newcastle? The 07.57 Lumo service (arrives Kings Cross 10.46) is £37.90 Advance/ £42.90 Lumo Flex on October 2Looking at tickets from Durham to London on 2nd October, really quite expensive (0708)
First of all lner say the cheapest tickets are released about 6 weeks
Then they say the fares quoted at the moment are the cheapest ones
Looking at various dates in August and September their are much cheaper tickets for the same time
They then say its because of demand
Are any of their answers correct or is it simply the fully quota of advance tickets has not been released
help pls
They didn't say they could go down. They said this:
...
I'm not sure there's anything in the rest of the exchanges quoted that contradicts the above quote? Can you clarify?
Again, can you clarify? The key exchange is quoted above. That to me seems totally clear and seems not to have been contradicted by any other information. Where's this confusion you're suggesting coming in?
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It refers to the period of time prior to Network Rail's confirmation of train times. During this time, tickets are only released on LNER services, with any other trains still not available for sale, and generally only through the LNER website or app, not through any other retail channels.
It's commonplace for all operators who do this to keep back some quota so they still have some to sell via trainline and so on when the timetable is confirmed.
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I don't usually take part in fares discussions on these forums since I don't know enough about them, but this post in particular intrigued me simply because of how close LNER might be getting themselves into legal hot water with their claim that the further ahead you book, the cheaper their tickets will be, while including a clause to absolve them of potential false advertisement. The gamble of whether or not fares will get cheaper or more expensive these days makes me more wary of booking travel by rail in case I end up paying more than I could have done.
But also, I take slight issue with the statement that August somehow has less demand largely because of Taylor Swift's tour happening in Wembley Stadium from the 15th to the 20th. Said tour has made travelling to London with Avanti (booking through the forums) on the 20th slightly more expensive than it would be for me to literally book tickets for tomorrow (and a Friday at that), so the demand for travel to London in August is clearly there. This might lead one to believe LNER could sneakily up their own prices for that month despite originally claiming it is a low demand period.
But also, I take slight issue with the statement that August somehow has less demand largely because of Taylor Swift's tour happening in Wembley Stadium from the 15th to the 20th. Said tour has made travelling to London with Avanti (booking through the forums) on the 20th slightly more expensive than it would be for me to literally book tickets for tomorrow (and a Friday at that), so the demand for travel to London in August is clearly there. This might lead one to believe LNER could sneakily up their own prices for that month despite originally claiming it is a low demand period.
This part of the exchange undermines attempts to claim there might be misselling here. It is clear both that the company tells the consumer that the prices may go down without compensation AND the consumer is choosing not to rely upon the information provided in the exchange when making any purchasing decision.
Another consumer might have responded differently but this one didn't so this exchange isn't particularly useful in terms of building up evidence of potential misselling.
You said there was confusion. I'm disagreeing with you about that.
The OP isn't really asking for advice as to how to pursue a claim for mis-selling that I've seen?
redreni
Established Member
This is pretty damning, imho.LNER certainly want people to book earlier, and not wait, and they want people to think the price is only going to go up:
Advance tickets | LNER
Cheaper tickets, same great journey. Book further in advance on the LNER website and app than anywhere else.
They do have this weasely get-out clause:
However it's not "occasional" and I don't think this gets them out of the statement that they want people to read prominently, which is that people should book earlier.
It is actually totally normal for the prices to go down, from the high price of the the extended booking horizon fares, to the lower priced fares that get released at the normal booking horizon; LNER don't want to admit this.
At the end of the day, people are entitled to their opinions about whether or not LNER should be acting this way; we are not all going to agree.
I don't think I understood fully what LNER were doing last football season. When I went to York, for example, I booked during the extended booking horizon (i.e. at a time when the forum's site wasn't offering Advance fares at all but the TOCs' sites were), but with Grand Central for £18. LNER's prices certainly were not acceptable to me.
But I don't think I realised that if I waited, cheaper fares on LNER would most likely manifest. It's a shame as I would pay more to travel on LNER - more comfortable trains, no diesel under the wires, less drama in the event of a cancellation since LNER run a frequent service, and so on. I just won't pay the fares they typically set during the extended booking horizon.
As it happens I regard Grand Central and Hull Trains' practice of releasing tickets during the extended booking horizon as anti-competitive as well, because they don't afaik release the tickets to other TOCs and third party retailers to sell. But in their defence, it can't really be described as a gamble to book a ticket from London to York for £18, or from London to Doncaster for £15. What LNER seem to be doing and the way they're advertising it strikes me as very anti-consumer. I agree they ought to be careful.
If LNER did release their entire quota during the extended booking period, they would risk there being none left for some passengers who make some high-value and time-competitive journeys which include a non-LNER connection e.g. Leeds - Brighton (with Thameslink), Cambridge - Edinburgh (with CrossCountry) or Dewsbury - London (with TransPennine Express). For some trains maybe all the quota does go on sale during the extended period, if they think it won't be popular enough to sell out in that time. There are doubtless other effects too around price-sensitivity and the competitor modes.
10-Car-Fan
Member
RE: Hull Trains/GC not releasing tickets, I'm sure this is wrong, It's LNERs website that does not show other TOCs tickets in the extended booking horizon (pretty anti-competitive if you ask me), and HT/GC tickets are available on other sites that do allow extended booking horizons, i.e. Trainline.
Do you have an example date and train for which this is happening now?
redreni
Established Member
So you think it's only retailers that don't wish to sell Hull Trains and Grand Central advances in the extended booking horizons that don't sell them?
Interesting. I had the distinct impression that the forum's site was unable to offer them, but I can't comment on that with any authority.
I could search for advances on the last date available (17/10/2024) on the beta site
LNER straight up doesn't show the Hull Train services, not even for walk-up fares
That is very interesting; thanks for posting.
It will also be interesting to see if this practice continues; if it does then LNER are playing a risky game. This just just the latest in a series of practices which could be interpreted as anticompetitive and potentially an abuse of a dominant market position.
I've been buying tickets for very early Durham to London for various dates between tomorrow and mid September. I am stuck on the end of August on the days after holiday Monday, they vary a little from day to day but haven't changed much in the last month. My September dates were much cheaper. I guess I might buy soon, although tickets for tomorrow's early trains are about £45 with a railcard as opposed to £55-65 at the end of August.
I'm pretty sure it will, all those are only the beginning of the scummy commercial practices. It's impressive they've gone as far as to filter out operators.
Is that even allowed under RDG accreditation?
Durham is a station where LNER price gouge. You will see the same train will often be cheaper if you board at Newcastle. I'd suggest travelling from Newcastle if it's an option.Looking at tickets from Durham to London on 2nd October, really quite expensive (0708)
First of all lner say the cheapest tickets are released about 6 weeks
Then they say the fares quoted at the moment are the cheapest ones
Looking at various dates in August and September their are much cheaper tickets for the same time
They then say its because of demand
Are any of their answers correct or is it simply the fully quota of advance tickets has not been released
help pls
For example, if you were to get the 07:43 train on 2nd October which arrives into London just 7 minutes later, that is currently £104.50 from Durham. If you board that same train in Newcastle at 07:30 it's only £63. Unfortunately this has been going on for months now. If you live north of Durham, travel from Newcastle.
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I don't believe TOC websites must be impartial. Only third party retailers and ticket offices must be.
What about TOC websites not offering the option to use a Railcard which is valid for use with some of the tickets they sell?
No different to many tickets machines that also do the exact same, is it?
10-Car-Fan
Member
I believe it is something to do with timetables not being confirmed until 12 weeks out (despite the 24-26 week booking horizon existing), so TOCs do not want to have to deal with the problem of another TOCs customer buying a potentially wrong ticket on there website, as they do not want to deal with a customer who is not travelling on there service.
Under an RDG approved Code of Practice which all train companies adhere to (but which is not legally binding)
basfordlad
Member
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- 28 Jul 2012
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- 246
I emailed the CEO of LNER and he had this looked into and said they were the cheapest tickets, so i checked the following week and previous week (same day and time), same price
Looked at the Friday (realise why its cheaper) and its only £47!
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Explain this....
£120 from Durham to London on the 7.43 (ish)
From morpeth (same train) it's £67.........
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Explain this....
£120 from Durham to London on the 7.43 (ish)
From morpeth (same train) it's £67.........
Looked at the Friday (realise why its cheaper) and its only £47!
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Explain this....
£120 from Durham to London on the 7.43 (ish)
From morpeth (same train) it's £67.........
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Explain this....
£120 from Durham to London on the 7.43 (ish)
From morpeth (same train) it's £67.........
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Is there any update on this, @basfordlad?
They are allowed to do this, but the question is whether they are prepared to actually admit they are doing it; LNER don't like admitting things which don't put them in a good light, though they aren't interested in stopping such sharp practices.
LNER generally take the view that the customer is wrong; I believe this comes from the very top of the company, so I am not surprised you got this response.
Did you put this to them, and did they reply?
They are allowed to do this, but the question is whether they are prepared to actually admit they are doing it; LNER don't like admitting things which don't put them in a good light, though they aren't interested in stopping such sharp practices.
Is there genuinely an issue with the LNER Rail Price Optimiser system??? I have been following the ticket prices available on the app for some time now. There was an issue back in 2015/16 when they first introduced this after taking over from Virgin. The Price optimiser's algo was updated back then, but recently the old issues seem to be raising their head again. Even booking in advance 3/4/5 weeks I have struggled to get the correct price for an advance or any ticket for that matter via their app. Travelling from Alnmouth to London Kings Cross the average single ticket should be (£57.60 - £60), I have only been able to obtain one ticket at this price in the last 4 years. last Monday is a good example a single to LKX from Alnmouth was £116.70 for a 6pm train, the same train and journey from Newcastle was £63 single, making the 23 minute journey from Alnmouth to Newcastle amount £53.70, yet a single from Alnmouth to Newcastle on that same journey was £6.20. This has been a recurring theme over the past year now and if I was a customer who had no idea they could split tickets like that would essentially be overpaying by £47.5, the same issue occurs on both sides of the journey and it mounts up when this is a weekly journey. Has anyone else seen issues like this on other journeys with LNER or is it Alnmouth as a specific station which is encountering this issue? There is also a correlation with price loading around key dates - Half term/ Holidays etc etc
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