Is It Time To Lock People On Trains?

[PermitToTravel]

And funnily enough you will also find that you will often be locked inside a road coach.

When?!

 

[randyrippley]

Simple solution: where you have a situation like this where the trains are stuck and not going anywhere, the third rail power should be cut as a basic safety measure.
And after an hour wait, evacuation should be the default resolution

 

[Llanigraham]

The last National Express coach I caught from here to Birmingham, the door was locked as soon as we moved off.

 

[6Gman]

And funnily enough you will also find that you will often be locked inside a road coach.

Ah, they told you it was a road coach. It was actually a prison van!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I catch a train on the Ffestiniog, Welsh Highland, Vale of Rheidol and the Talyllyn I get locked in the carriages. That is done for the safety of the passengers. Are you suggesting that they are wrong to do so?

Yes, I actually find it quite concerning that there is no emergency release, though I'd probably (only just) fit out of a droplight. This is all the more concerning as they are wooden coaches.

And funnily enough you will also find that you will often be locked inside a road coach.

All PCVs in the UK must by law have passenger door releases, just like trains, as well as separate emergency exit doors at the rear and often roof hatches too. All of these are passenger-operable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The last National Express coach I caught from here to Birmingham, the door was locked as soon as we moved off.

No, it wasn't. The door was closed, it was not locked. Or at least it was not locked such that you could not release it without driver assistance were that required.

 

[Temple Meads]

Some coaches do have door locks that engage at a certain speed (about 5mph I think).

 

[MadCommuter]

I hope the inquiry in to Lewisham comes to the same conclusions in this thread.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes, I actually find it quite concerning that there is no emergency release, though I'd probably (only just) fit out of a droplight. This is all the more concerning as they are wooden coaches.

Then you had better take it up with the ORR, because they have agreed it, it is their safety case and they don't move until all doors are locked.
And they aren't all wooden coaches.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I sincerely hope the RAIB report doesn’t come to the same conclusion regarding locking people in a train as it would be extremely worrying such a body would consider it an option in the first place.

 

[theironroad]

Some coaches do have door locks that engage at a certain speed (about 5mph I think).

Not that I really use them, but don't London hackney cabs passenger doors lock at about that speed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some coaches do have door locks that engage at a certain speed (about 5mph I think).

If they do they will disengage when the coach stops or on use of any emergency handle when stationary if a failure means they don't automatically. That's not the same thing at all.

 

[Abpj17]

I think the more relevant issue to address is whether there should be a mandatory evacuation threshold. 2 hours and if there's no obvious sign of improvement then the scene is turned over to the emergency services.

There isn't going to be a single right threshold. What would be appropriate is that after, say, 90 minutes, the TOC should review every 30 mins or so if it is appropriate to evacuate. Factors might include outside temp, proximity to station, likelihood of fix etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There isn't going to be a single right threshold. What would be appropriate is that after, say, 90 minutes, the TOC should review every 30 mins or so if it is appropriate to evacuate. Factors might include outside temp, proximity to station, likelihood of fix etc.

Far less than 90 minutes on any toiletless train.

 

[SwindonBert]

Not that I really use them, but don't London hackney cabs passenger doors lock at about that speed.

They lock if the cab moves or the brakes are applied

 

[sefton]

I read a news article earlier with BTP stating that some of those who bailed could be facing criminal procedures, but even then, I expect they will be let off lightly.

Of course they won't be.

The simple rule with any newspaper article posing a question and suggesing something might happen is the answer is "no it won't".

 

[Robertj21a]

Far less than 90 minutes on any toiletless train.

I think most people would think 1 hour should be enough for something to be happening, or at least a clear communication given as to what the problem appears to be and how long they may be stranded. Once you get much past that first hour, or in the absence of any apparent action, it's quite likely that passengers will start to consider taking their own action.

 

[Kettledrum]

What makes you think that the "emergency services" (who exactly?) would be any more able to resolve the issue than the railway authorities?

Sadly the "railway authorities" have proved incapable of resolving some of these situations. The answer is not to lock passengers in carriages. It's for the "railway authorities" to accept that sometimes they need help

 

[trainophile]

Perhaps toiletless trains should carry a couple of boxes of these.

https://*******.com/yd4oyl9f

Together with some sort of beach shelter type screen (lightweight - four poles with thin blackout fabric) so an area could be set up in the corner of each coach for emergency use.

Too much trouble and too expensive for the rare occasion of need, but could have been a saviour on this occasion. Maybe those of us who use such trains should carry our own, although a bit tricky for women to use without privacy unless they wear skirts, which almost no-one does these days.

I dread getting stuck on a Merseyrail train between stations or in the underground loop, and am sorry the new trains don't have toilets either.

Edit: Not sure why this is in bold, can't seem to take it off.

 

[Saj8]

It is possible to generate a test tone over the PA speakers on any train where the GSM-R interfaces with the PA, which should be pretty much any type of multiple unit. You can also use the same function of the GSM-R to make PA announcements using the GSM-R handset if the PA handset fails.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

If I catch a train on the Ffestiniog, Welsh Highland, Vale of Rheidol and the Talyllyn I get locked in the carriages. That is done for the safety of the passengers. Are you suggesting that they are wrong to do so?
And funnily enough you will also find that you will often be locked inside a road coach.
Perhaps you need to reconsider your statement?

Last time I travelled on the WHR (last October) a not particularly busy Porthmadog - Caernarfon train had eight on board staff. You can lock the doors as long as you provide someone in each carriage to open them.
Great idea to help increase RMT membership across the country.

 

[theageofthetra]

There are exactly two ways to stop passengers self-evacuating:

1. Get the train moving before they do
2. Evacuate them before they do.

You can do things to increase the length of time before self-evacuation happens - as mentioned on here repeatedly the principle one is communication. Update people regularly and be honest and you can gain hours.

Correct.

It is possible to generate a test tone over the PA speakers on any train where the GSM-R interfaces with the PA, which should be pretty much any type of multiple unit. You can also use the same function of the GSM-R to make PA announcements using the GSM-R handset if the PA handset fails.

On a lot of units they share the same handset.

 

[Mojo]

Even if the time was allocated to do a full walk test in the depot, many PA defects arise because of problems with the connectors between the coaches and thus the problems only become apparent on the road as then movement of the train causes the electrical connections to move.

 

[theageofthetra]

Even if the time was allocated to do a full walk test in the depot, many PA defects arise because of problems with the connectors between the coaches and thus the problems only become apparent on the road as then movement of the train causes the electrical connections to move.

Absolutely. Nearly all the PA faults I have had occurred once in service and mostly software related which cutting in/out have resolved.

 

[Nevasleep]

If they do they will disengage when the coach stops or on use of any emergency handle when stationary if a failure means they don't automatically. That's not the same thing at all.

I agree, there is a big difference between a door being locked or a door being locked but with an emergency release, and I would not like to travel if the former was the case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, there is a big difference between a door being locked or a door being locked but with an emergency release, and I would not like to travel if the former was the case.

The FfR / WHR(C) does bother me in that regard. I don't understand why they did not fit an emergency release facility, say under a break-glass panel, or if nothing else a break-glass panel by each door with a carriage key inside. They are varnished wooden coaches pulled by steam locomotives and fire could start and spread quickly. Though I think the windows are single glazed so could be kicked through easily enough.

 

[Llanigraham]

The FfR / WHR(C) does bother me in that regard. I don't understand why they did not fit an emergency release facility, say under a break-glass panel, or if nothing else a break-glass panel by each door with a carriage key inside. They are varnished wooden coaches pulled by steam locomotives and fire could start and spread quickly. Though I think the windows are single glazed so could be kicked through easily enough.

Because the ORR has agreed their Safety Case and found their systems to be perfectly safe.
I suggest that you really don't understand how these railways work.
If you think it is wrong take it up with the ORR.

And do you realise that any new carriage has to be built to the same exacting standards as a main line carriage in many areas?
(said as part of the carriage building team on the Corris Railway!)

 

[LAX54]

Unfortunately the first egress was after more like one hour. This then led to the switch off and the resulting 3-5 hour wait, with the knock on of further egresses.

EDIT - sorry re-reading, you’ve acknowledged that. I would still say the first egress was unreasonable, after an hour stuck on a heated, lit train with driver able to make announcements.

I can understand people exiting cold/dark trains when incommunicado much more.

Actually I heard it was nearer the 30 min mark when he decided to go home after that, it was inevitable that it would now be a lot longer,

 

[physics34]

why the urgency for snap changes....... things need to be proactive not reactive. The reason trains have alot of egresses is because of past accidents. the problem in this whole incident is the time taken to sort things out. I have sympathy for the commuters.A train full of people stranded for hours should be deemed as an EMERGENCY. The fact they were so close to the station made it all more agitating. Youve got old women being forced to urinate themselves because a) the train doesnt have adequate facilities and b) because of the time taken to organise an evacuation.

A big green handle would be tempting to pull if feeling claustrophobic etc... but it has to be big and it has to be green

 

[physics34]

Actually I heard it was nearer the 30 min mark when he decided to go home after that, it was inevitable that it would now be a lot longer,

even 30 mins in those conditions "with the station right there" is too long