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Is It Time To Lock People On Trains?

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Wivenswold

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I think the more relevant issue to address is whether there should be a mandatory evacuation threshold. 2 hours and if there's no obvious sign of improvement then the scene is turned over to the emergency services.

Imagine being trapped in a lift (possibly a bad example as there's usually more room to move in lifts than a commuter train) for 3 hours and being given no idea of when you'll be freed. I think most people would be tapping panels and seeking a way out by then.
 
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Bromley boy

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i’ve said it on here before that many units leave the depot with faulty pa systems. I’ve been told that this is NEVER possible as it is not allowed and I must be wrong, by people who do not seem to travel on those trains.

Slightly off topic but I can assure you this can and does happen very frequently!

When a train is prepped (ie before being taken into service from a depot or berthing point), the PA will be checked by opening the cab-saloon door and blowing into the microphone. This procedure is followed for both end and intermediate cabs.

There’s simply no way to tell if it’s working in intermediate coaches. More modern stock will no doubt flag any issues through the TMS.
 

Bletchleyite

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Slightly off topic but I can assure you this can and does happen very frequently!

When a train is prepped (ie before being taken into service from a depot or berthing point), the PA will be checked by opening the cab-saloon door and blowing into the microphone. This procedure is followed for both end and intermediate cabs.

There’s simply no way to tell if it’s working in intermediate coaches. More modern stock will no doubt flag any issues through the TMS.

Obviously not viable with DOO, but it would seem sensible on a guarded train that once the guard arrives a check is done on all coaches.
 

Bromley boy

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Obviously not viable with DOO, but it would seem sensible on a guarded train that once the guard arrives a check is done on all coaches.

Yes indeed, although it’s ironically more important with DOO as, unlike with guarded trains, a functional PA is a rulebook requirement. I assume there is some kind of dispensarion somewhere for “functional” to include “partly functional”, for these purposes.
 

Ash Bridge

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How selfish irresponsible and idiotic was it not to want to be stuck in a train going nowhere in the freezing cold? Think again!

Oh I'm sorry George, so you're actually condoning this self-egress then? Also if you care to look up thread you may notice it mentioned that the train interior was just the opposite of freezing cold.
 

goblinuser

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In the Taunton sleeper fire, 12 people were killed and 15 were injured due to being locked in a burning coach.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taunton_sleeping_car_fire

I think this is more than could ever be killed by a third rail if people evacuated. It sounds grim but if one person were to be electrocuted, others would see and stay away from the rails. Furthermore, there are evacuation instructions printed inside trains which give basic information on staying safe.

So no, people should not be locked on trains. Especially those without guards.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes indeed, although it’s ironically more important with DOO as, unlike with guarded trains, a functional PA is a rulebook requirement. I assume there is some kind of dispensarion somewhere for “functional” to include “partly functional”, for these purposes.

It would seem to me to make sense to be able to press a button to generate a continuous test announcement and walk through the train, then do a manual one and check you hear it from the cab - that would cover all bases.
 

Bletchleyite

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In the Taunton sleeper fire, 12 people were killed and 15 were injured due to being locked in a burning coach.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taunton_sleeping_car_fire

I think this is more than could ever be killed by a third rail if people evacuated. It sounds grim but if one person were to be electrocuted, others would see and stay away from the rails. Furthermore, there are evacuation instructions printed inside trains which give basic information on staying safe.

So no, people should not be locked on trains. Especially those without guards.

Agreed. People should not be locked in anything (other than a plane in the air assuming no parachutes).
 

Antman

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Oh I'm sorry George, so you're actually condoning this self-egress then? Also if you care to look up thread you may notice it mentioned that the train interior was just the opposite of freezing cold.

Obviously in normal circumstances I wouldn't be condoning such actions but this was obviously exceptional.

Ok if we accept the train was warm it's still hardly a pleasant environment, lack of toilet etc.
 

daikilo

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The problem is that some "adults" think they can walk on water. Maybe a sign saying "you are on CCTV, if you evacuate this train without instruction and assistance from railway staff you will be liable to a 50,000 pound fine, whether you survive or not" might help.

That said, after say half an hour, communication from the traincrew becomes very important and should be about what is happening or is being prepared. If there is no plan then nasty things can happen.
 
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Bromley boy

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It would seem to me to make sense to be able to press a button to generate a continuous test announcement and walk through the train, then do a manual one and check you hear it from the cab - that would cover all bases.

Yes it would. Although it would fall down at the usual hurdle of nobody feeling able to justify the cost of retrofitting this to legacy stock (even though in many cases it’ll be around for several more decades).

Hopefully TMS systems will alert the driver in more modern stock.
 

paddington

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I suspect that passengers locked on a train might eventually resort to breaking the windows.
 

fowler9

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It should not take three hours to evacuate trains that are within walking distance of station platforms. Some of the reports are truly shocking. A 75 year old woman being forced to urinate in front of everyone on a packed train with no toilets.

If passengers were given regular updates of what was happening and could see that action was being taken I doubt they would find it so necessary to self-evacuate. Surely after one hour of a train being stuck in central london it should be possible to line up an evacuation with local station staff.
Clearly things would happen more quickly if the train was filling with smoke and the industry clearly doesn't appreciate how horrific conditions are onboard packed commuter trains when things go wrong.
This, it is all about communication. I have been sat on a train not moving for over twenty minutes many times in the cutting heading to Lime Street with not a single announcement being made. I think that after 5 minutes an announcement would be nice, even if it just says "We don't know what is happening at the minute but it is nothing to worry about". I work in complaints in housing and people really appreciate a call every now and again even if it is to say "I have no news" just so they know that they haven't been forgotten about.
 

whhistle

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The problem is that some "adults" think they can walk on water. Maybe a sign saying "you are on CCTV, if you evacuate this train without instruction and assistance from railway staff you will be liable to a 50,000 pound fine, whether you survive or not" might help.
And this is it.

Everyone suggesting "no we shouldn't [lock people on trains]" - that's fine. It's a question; I've learnt recently to make things simple, despite how stupid they sound.

The linking statement is then those people who say "no" are in-directly saying that self-evacuation is okay. Is it? Really? So thinking a little more, perhaps it isn't acceptable (so how do you solve the problem of people doing it willy nilly?) all the time. But is some of the time; let's call that time, "exceptional circumstances". It's difficult to pin down exactly what "exceptional circumstances" are as they'll be different for different people.

But if self-evacuation isn't okay, how do you solve the problem? Educating adults isn't going to work - it barely works for many things on the railway, hence things like safety announcements or signs are now just a tick-box excercise covering the companies bottom.

But then you get people who slip over in snowy weather, but try and claim as they were not informed it was slippery, it can't have been their fault - ergo the problem we have these days with so many terms and conditions attached to things instead of what was common sense being applied.
 

goblinuser

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The problem is that some "adults" think they can walk on water. Maybe a sign saying "you are on CCTV, if you evacuate this train without instruction and assistance from railway staff you will be liable to a 50,000 pound fine, if you survive" might help.
This could cause people to remain on a burning train and die.
Especially with trains these days only having a driver, the instruction to evacuate is not going to happen promptly.
 

theageofthetra

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It would seem to me to make sense to be able to press a button to generate a continuous test announcement and walk through the train, then do a manual one and check you hear it from the cab - that would cover all bases.
A very good idea that. Unfortunatey it would require more time allocated to the driver /shunter prep which costs money so unfortunately won't happen.

A lot of PA faults also happen once the train is in service.
 

MarkyT

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Self evacuation is a particular problem on third rail infrastructure as control staff have to isolate the power rail ASAP as soon as they become aware of public on the track and by definition that will cut off supply to the particular stranded trains, and those on surrounding tracks that might otherwise be part of a rescue solution, widening the scope of the disruption, lengthening delays and contributing immediately to yet worse conditions on board the now increased number of stranded services, circumstances which could then encourage even more people to alight. Nightmare.
 

moley

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This place amazes me at times as it appears passengers can never be right. Passengers don't set out to annoy those working on the railway but stick them in a situation that the don't know and survival instinct kicks in.

Years ago, just after the introduction of the SWT 444s, I was travelling late at night on an icy even. We came to a stop just outside a station. After a while, some of the train lighting dimmed and the heating was not effective. After an hour of no news, some passengers banged on the drivers door - no response. We walked through the train, very few passengers, no sign of the guard. We banged on the rear cab door - no response.

Its easy to feel abandoned at this point having not moved or heard from anyone for an hour. The SWT helpline didn't even realise the train was delayed!

Those who don't know how the railways work don't understand whether the train is protected by signals in these situations or whether another train could cause an incident. After 90 minutes, another passenger was going to exit the train. We talked them down to activating the passcom instead. This suddenly generated action from both the guard and driver who were consumed with rage that the passcom had been activated. Why could they not have done a PA or at best walked through the train once in 90 minutes?

I discussed this experience with someone from SWT management at length. SWT agreed that updates at least every 10 minutes were reasonable if only to confirm a) you're in the safest place, b) contact with the outside world has been made and c) staff are on this train working to resolve the problem. SWT agreed that ordinary passengers don't set out to detrain themselves. But when you've heard nothing for an extended period of time, you're packed in like sardines, you've seen no member of staff anywhere, you don't know if you're safer on the train or off it. It causes people to make irrational judgement calls.
 

theageofthetra

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This, it is all about communication. I have been sat on a train not moving for over twenty minutes many times in the cutting heading to Lime Street with not a single announcement being made. I think that after 5 minutes an announcement would be nice, even if it just says "We don't know what is happening at the minute but it is nothing to worry about". I work in complaints in housing and people really appreciate a call every now and again even if it is to say "I have no news" just so they know that they haven't been forgotten about.

Excellent post.

This should not be happening unless there is a PA fault and is unacceptable.

In other industries there have been extensive studies into the effects of confinement, lack of information, anxiety and human behaviour to this kind of situation. This includes real life modeling with actual volunteers- I worked with someone who did one in the maritime industry (as a result of the Costa Concordia disaster) and it was a real eyeopener how quickly rational people can start doing the most irrational things if they start to get anxious and aren't kept informed.

I have seen videos of how passengers behaved on the Concordia and its sobering.


As you correctly say reassurance is vital even if you have no updates to give.
 

Antman

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Generally speaking I think drivers and guards make far more announcements nowadays "just being held at a red light and we'll be on the move again shortly" etc just reassures passengers.
 

theageofthetra

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If he needed a slash on a toiletless train can you blame him?
I have been on a toiletless train which was stuck for a while and a passenger apologised to those around them and said he couldn't wait anymore and went into a quieter part of the coach by the gangway and weed in a bottle. No one had an issue with it.

Ladies of course are a different issue.
 

yorksrob

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I was stuck on a train for two hours behind a points failure this week. The guard and driver (Northern Rail) did a good job of updating us over the intercom and walking through the train speaking to people throughout the time.

As others have said, such contact goes a long way - even if it's just admitting that there's not much news yet.
 

theageofthetra

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Generally speaking I think drivers and guards make far more announcements nowadays "just being held at a red light and we'll be on the move again shortly" etc just reassures passengers.

Yes definitely better but sadly some don't think it's their job.
 

robbeech

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A very good idea that. Unfortunatey it would require more time allocated to the driver /shunter prep which costs money so unfortunately won't happen.

A lot of PA faults also happen once the train is in service.

Yes, agreed, nearly all of them will happen once the train is in service. The problem is that they are then never tested properly again and they go in and out of service daily for the rest of eternity. A device that holds down a momentary button and a device that outputs an intermittent tone that is able to be clamped to a microphone would be the most crude retrofit to old stock with an audio path that cannot be intercepted (and has the advantage of testing all components including the microphone itself which could easily be a point of failure). To design this would take a small amount of time and the unit cost would be relatively low (this is not a guess, this is fact, there are off the shelf products for each feature here that could be redeveloped into a bespoke item or items). With a button held down where it is a momentary switch not a fixed switch and an audio transmitter outputting a constant tone or signal a member of staff can walk through the train to check all output devices are functioning. This doesn't have to be done separately, this can be switched on early on in the checks and checked accordingly as the pass through the train for other reasons.
 

Bromley boy

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So thinking a little more, perhaps it isn't acceptable (so how do you solve the problem of people doing it willy nilly?) all the time.

People don't do it all the time so it isn't a problem that needs solving. Simples.
 

whoosh

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No, you should always be able to egress in an emergency.

However, there needs to be videos like this publicised as to what can happen if you aren't careful once you've left the train in an uncontrolled evacuation:

As an aside: Try getting out of a Meridian (and maybe a Voyager) when there's no battery power to the vestibule doors. Very hard! Even more so if the coach was on its side!
 
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