Is It Time To Ditch the 9.30 Rule?

[JonathanH]

I think it has to be borne in mind that there isn't actually a blanket 0930 restriction at the moment and some flows allow earlier off-peak journeys where passengers are travelling a longer distance, although CrossCountry priced flows generally use 0930 as a blanket restriction).

0930 for local journeys is fine. Railcards being later also make sense.

I think that the railway should be free to offer promotions when it thinks it has spare capacity on a targeted basis. Therefore, not just moving an off-peak restriction on all days, but doing so on days it feels that it needs to encourage more travel.

One of the problems with the Network Railcard (or indeed any railcard) is that it offers year round discounts, rather than discounts on a targeted basis when the railway has the most spare capacity. If the railway can charge more when there is natural high demand and encourage people to take discretionary journeys when it has spare capacity that is all round a benefit to the railway.

 

[yorksrob]

I think it has to be borne in mind that there isn't actually a blanket 0930 restriction at the moment and some flows allow earlier off-peak journeys where passengers are travelling a longer distance, although CrossCountry priced flows generally use 0930 as a blanket restriction).

0930 for local journeys is fine. Railcards being later also make sense.

I think that the railway should be free to offer promotions when it thinks it has spare capacity on a targeted basis. Therefore, not just moving an off-peak restriction on all days, but doing so on days it feels that it needs to encourage more travel.

One of the problems with the Network Railcard (or indeed any railcard) is that it offers year round discounts, rather than discounts on a targeted basis when the railway has the most spare capacity. If the railway can charge more when there is natural high demand and encourage people to take discretionary journeys when it has spare capacity that is all round a benefit to the railway.

One of the main selling points of railcards is precisely that it is transparent and easy to understand when they can be used.

The industry already does its share of micro-targeting through advance purchase sales, and there's a limit to how many passengers in what circumstances will put up with their leisure activities being micro-managed by the railway.

 

[JonathanH]

The industry already does its share of micro-targeting through advance purchase sales, and there's a limit to how many passengers in what circumstances will put up with their leisure activities being micro-managed by the railway.

The vast majority of people plan their railway journeys around some sort of external factor, such as a football match, holiday, retail sales, horse racing, concert, theatre etc.

The railway can predict when it needs to make offers and when it doesn't. We are all interested in the ongoing viability of the railway. It needs to be able to level out loadings and income to get nearer to that viability.

Someone who just wants to travel for the sake of it can wait until the discount offer comes.

 

[yorksrob]

The vast majority of people plan their railway journeys around some sort of external factor, such as a football match, holiday, retail sales, horse racing, concert, theatre etc.

The railway can predict when it needs to make offers and when it doesn't. We are all interested in the ongoing viability of the railway. It needs to be able to level out loadings and income to get nearer to that viability.

Someone who just wants to travel for the sake of it can wait until the discount offer comes.

Just because I might have a football match to go to, doesn't mean I'm prepared be tied to a particular train afterwards.

The industry needs to get it through its skull that leisure travellers need competitively priced, flexible products that fit peoples undefined and changeable needs. Railcards do this already.

 

[Trainlog]

I think it has to be borne in mind that there isn't actually a blanket 0930 restriction at the moment and some flows allow earlier off-peak journeys where passengers are travelling a longer distance, although CrossCountry priced flows generally use 0930 as a blanket restriction).

0930 for local journeys is fine. Railcards being later also make sense.

I think that the railway should be free to offer promotions when it thinks it has spare capacity on a targeted basis. Therefore, not just moving an off-peak restriction on all days, but doing so on days it feels that it needs to encourage more travel.

One of the problems with the Network Railcard (or indeed any railcard) is that it offers year round discounts, rather than discounts on a targeted basis when the railway has the most spare capacity. If the railway can charge more when there is natural high demand and encourage people to take discretionary journeys when it has spare capacity that is all round a benefit to the railway.

If you could use your railcard before 9 30, wouldn't it help with easing road congestion by getting people out of their cars and looking to take the train instead? Also in your case of local journeys, if i could use my railcard before 9 30 it would work out cheaper for me to go by rail to places than by bus if there is a viable rail alternative.

 

[JonathanH]

If you could use your railcard before 9 30, wouldn't it help with easing road congestion by getting people out of their cars and looking to take the train instead?

No, because people don't just take a car or train on price grounds. All you are arguing for is the railway to make less money.

Charging tax on workplace parking as a benefit in kind or putting up car parking prices is a better approach, perhaps in conjunction with a compensatory reduction in an another appropriate tax - eg the bottom bands of council tax.

Also in your case of local journeys, if i could use my railcard before 9 30 it would work out cheaper for me to go by rail to places than by bus if there is a viable rail alternative.

Why does the railway need to be cheaper than a bus? Arguably the train offers a more attractive option in journey time terms. We really don't need to be reducing demand for buses. They have seen more cut backs than the railway.

 

[Trainlog]

No, because people don't just take a car or train on price grounds. All you are arguing for is the railway to make less money.

Charging tax on workplace parking as a benefit in kind or putting up car parking prices is a better approach, perhaps in conjunction with a compensatory reduction in an another appropriate tax - eg the bottom bands of council tax.


Why does the railway need to be cheaper than a bus? Arguably the train offers a more attractive option in journey time terms. We really don't need to be reducing demand for buses. They have seen more cut backs than the railway.

Fair enough on point 1 that is a good comeback. As for point 2, when you get on a bus outside London and you see there is little attempt by bus companies such as Arriva to keep costs low or to make it an attractive alternative for Cars or trains you do start to lose sympathy for them. For instance if they put advertising inside the buses in the same way the London underground does to subsidise the prices, further installation of electronic timetables rather than enforcing an app that doesn't work, and working with the railways as a change point for non rail connected towns by being briefly on a train announcement such as for example 'This is Headcorn, change here for the number 12 to Tenterden' then i might start to appreciate buses again.

 

[RT4038]

Fair enough on point 1 that is a good comeback. As for point 2, when you get on a bus outside London and you see there is little attempt by bus companies such as Arriva to keep costs low or to make it an attractive alternative for Cars or trains you do start to lose sympathy for them. For instance if they put advertising inside the buses in the same way the London underground does to subsidise the prices, further installation of electronic timetables rather than enforcing an app that doesn't work, and working with the railways as a change point for non rail connected towns by being briefly on a train announcement such as for example 'This is Headcorn, change here for the number 12 to Tenterden' then i might start to appreciate buses again.

• Bus companies do seek commercial advertising in buses, but the truth is that advertisers are hard to come by who wish to pay the kind of money which will pay for the staff to administer and fix/remove such adverts and still have some profit. Underground posters will be seen by far more people, and a far more affluent spending demographic to appeal to advertisers, than provincial bus interiors, unfortunately.
• The installation and ongoing maintenance / malicious damage repair of electronic timetable boards is very expensive, and getting less and less necessary as more and more people have portable electronic timetables in their pockets. Any money that the bus companies may have would be better spent on improving their apps / websites (itself a costly exercise)for ease of use on portable devices.
• Bus companies 'working with the railways' is easier said than done. The electronic information is already available if the railways really wanted to use it and display / announce such information. However they are under pressure to reduce overloads of information, and to ensure such information is correct. From my experience, the bus industry still has some to go in getting their data correct (which, in their defence, I seem to recall rail data taking some time to get into a state good enough for confident use - and bus data is ten times more complicated). All this takes money (in programmers/testers, and in staff to ensure the data is input correctly), a commodity which is not exactly in abundance in your average bus company.

 

[Trainlog]

• Bus companies do seek commercial advertising in buses, but the truth is that advertisers are hard to come by who wish to pay the kind of money which will pay for the staff to administer and fix/remove such adverts and still have some profit. Underground posters will be seen by far more people, and a far more affluent spending demographic to appeal to advertisers, than provincial bus interiors, unfortunately.
• The installation and ongoing maintenance / malicious damage repair of electronic timetable boards is very expensive, and getting less and less necessary as more and more people have portable electronic timetables in their pockets. Any money that the bus companies may have would be better spent on improving their apps / websites (itself a costly exercise)for ease of use on portable devices.
• Bus companies 'working with the railways' is easier said than done. The electronic information is already available if the railways really wanted to use it and display / announce such information. However they are under pressure to reduce overloads of information, and to ensure such information is correct. From my experience, the bus industry still has some to go in getting their data correct (which, in their defence, I seem to recall rail data taking some time to get into a state good enough for confident use - and bus data is ten times more complicated). All this takes money (in programmers/testers, and in staff to ensure the data is input correctly), a commodity which is not exactly in abundance in your average bus company.

I admit this is a good explanation, however i do think though this is a kinda poor response from me, but it genuinely feels like they haven't tried much of this and they are moaning that its the fall in customers than making stronger attempts to rescue the sinking ship as i put it.

For advertising yeah i admit they might be trying but it just feels like they haven't tried hard enough, i mean they could put on the side of a bus with no advertising on it an ad about Advertising especially on routes that are profitable, They can also make Radio ads,social media and local papers, and work out from there. Bus prices are still going to go up in 2023 and they will start to lose even more commuters if they don't find methods to cut the costs and i am glad that you agree with me on the sentiment that they should be on buses, but i do think a lot of bus companies need to be a bit more motivated to keep the prices down in coming years or they will face further cuts.

Secondly, as much as that is the bus companies main intentions atm for 'the App', i still think at least town centres should get electronic bus boards, not every bus starts and terminates in a town from a bus station, there is a lot of confusion from potential bus passengers from where the bus begins from and i think boards will help people find the buses. I can get behind maybe villages not getting this infrastructure for cost reasons but it just shows a lack of care in a large urban areas bus infrastructure if its not present there. For the vandalism argument yeah its still very likely to happen, but there are many areas that are known for it, but still have electronic bus boards regardless and after repeat visits to those areas they have survived intact.

3, I appreciate the bit that it costs money and there shouldn't be a mental overload but still for towns that have long been isolated from rail perhaps if they cant announce them the next best thing is to probably make it obvious around the station, if they can advertise that this station is home to a college or whatever then i cant see why non rail connected bus routes cant get a quick reference at a station.

I am sorry if this did divert too far from the main point of this thread (Ditching the 9 30 rule on railways) but going back to what started this side bus debate, why should i take the bus if they arent making it any easier for the passenger on their wallet or understanding their network whilst the train with a railcard could save me money and be a more comfortable and better quality way of getting around if the 9 30 rule was abolished.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

What people on this thread don't realise is that (with the exception of the Network railcard), railcards can be used during the morning peak. All it is, the discount will only be applied if the ticket costs more than £12, so the railcard would of no use if you're doing a short journey, but can be very helpful for a long distance journey. For example, I've done various Horsham to Weymouth/Dorchester journeys during the morning peak on a weekday, and I was still able to pay a reduced anytime price of £21.75 (compared to a non railcard price of £33).

I own a 16-25 railcard before you ask me this question.

However, I can agree that if we want make travel more attractive, then all the peak restrictions need to be abolished. What I would propose is a simplification of the tickets, meaning no more off peak and super off peak with confusing time restrictions, and just anytime (but I would keep the advance). This is done in Belgium (where you can travel at anytime you want regardless of the day of the week) and it works pretty well (although I do realise that neighbouring Netherlands does have peak restrictions just like the UK...). However, of course, as we've pointed out many times before, the railway will never do this. They only ever care about profit.

 

[jfollows]

What people on this thread don't realise is that (with the exception of the Network railcard), railcards can be used during the morning peak.

Two Together Railcard (https://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk/help/terms-conditions/):

4.5. Discounted tickets are not valid for travel between 04:30 – 09:29 hours, Monday to Friday, except on Public Holidays.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Two Together Railcard (https://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk/help/terms-conditions/):

Interesting, didn't know about that.

 

[JonathanH]

What people on this thread don't realise is that (with the exception of the Network railcard), railcards can be used during the morning peak.

Family & Friends and Senior Railcard can't be used for journeys wholly within the former Network South East area for any journey until off-peak tickets become valid.

However, I can agree that if we want make travel more attractive, then all the peak restrictions need to be abolished. What I would propose is a simplification of the tickets, meaning no more off peak and super off peak with confusing time restrictions, and just anytime (but I would keep the advance).

Fares will need to increase for journeys at off peak times then. Fares at peak time are simply not going to reduce to the levels currently charged at off-peak times, and there isn't money available for any other solution.

However, of course, as we've pointed out many times before, the railway will never do this. They only ever care about profit.

No profit in the railway. There is a need to match demand and supply, and to keep the amount of government subsidy sustainable.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Family & Friends and Senior Railcard can't be used for journeys wholly within the former Network South East area for any journey until off-peak tickets become valid.

Senior Railcard as well? Ok, I literally thought the Network Railcard was the only Railcard that couldn't be used during the morning weekday peak.

 

[JonathanH]

For example, I've done various Horsham to Weymouth/Dorchester journeys during the morning peak on a weekday, and I was still able to pay a reduced anytime price of £21.75 (compared to a non railcard price of £33).

I own a 16-25 railcard before you ask me this question.

Make the most of it (and the bargain fares along the South Coast) while you can!

 

[Birmingham]

Make the most of it (and the bargain fares along the South Coast) while you can!

I hope this is a reference to the age-restricted nature of the entitlement rather than anything more sinister!

 

[JonathanH]

I hope this is a reference to the age-restricted nature of the entitlement rather than anything more sinister!

Yes, very much about the age restriction!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Ok, I literally thought the Network Railcard was the only Railcard that couldn't be used during the morning weekday peak.

Cotswold Line Railcard is “valid for use when Off Peak tickets are available”.

 

[redengine]

I would far rather get rid of the obnoxious afternoon peak restrictions, such as Northern's ND:

There are similar restrictions elsewhere, such as to/from Birmingham New Street, as well as London of course. I have no problem with "cheap after 09:30" although I see the argument you make also, but the afternoon ones are confusing and intimidating - most people don't know that it's not an offence to upgrade on the train if you fall into the excluded times, so will buy a full-fare ticket "just in case". Also you get an issue that if you board a train, say at Manchester Airport to Wilmslow, the cheap ticket isn't valid because it's after 16:00 but people already on the train who joined before 16:00 can use a cheap ticket. It's confusing and should be abolished.

I'd sooner keep the afternoon peak restrictions, and indeed extend them to Sundays when InterCity trains can get unpleasantly overcrowded. The trains are actually busy at those times, and it's helpful to encourage leisure passengers to stay out for dinner and take later trains after the peak. But the morning peak restrictions really just result in very empty trains. There isn't a significant leisure market to nudge at 6am.