Is it time for network rail / HMG to look at regional lines?

[civ-eng-jim]

I got the joke. I just didn't agree with its premise !

Ah, my apologies - your response seemed quite serious

 

[DarloRich]

Spending anywhere (including HS2). You can blame Br**it for that as it has put a huge choke on effective government. Note this is not a Br**it thread!

and we cant know how much money will be available for investment after B day because no one knows how post B day will turn out!

 

[yorksrob]

Spending anywhere (including HS2). You can blame Br**it for that as it has put a huge choke on effective government. Note this is not a Br**it thread!

That's as maybe, but it doesn't explain the dearth of investment leading up to 2016, so the political logjam has lasted a lot longer than that.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's as maybe, but it doesn't explain the dearth of investment leading up to 2016, so the political logjam has lasted a lot longer than that.

You might have missed all the investment in the network for the last 15 years?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

A quick look at a map of the line between Swansea and Cardiff, the alignment is a lot more sinuous than that between Reading and Paddington and therefore track geometry will limit top speeds. That's unlikely to bettered without rebuilding most of the line.

That's true of Cardiff to Swansea but there are several stretches of regional railway where the alignment does not preclude faster speeds. Obviously re-signalling, strengthening embankments etc will require heavy investment but the OP was asking if we should nevertheless consider such projects.

 

[yorksrob]

You might have missed all the investment in the network for the last 15 years?

Not nearly enough capacity to keep pace with demand. The fact remains that in spite of unprecedented growth in passenger numbers, a lot of the regional routes that were running around with 2 and 3 carriage trains twenty years ago, are still doing so today.

 

[Dr Day]

OP was asking if we should nevertheless consider such projects

As far as I am aware Network Rail don't differentiate between 'regional' and any other categorisation in their previous or future proposals for infrastructure enhancements, and schemes have to stack up on their own merit, independent of location or the type of service which would benefit.

Without wishing to turn this into another South East vs Rest of the UK funding fairness thread is there any evidence in the public domain that 'regional' infrastructure projects that have a solid case are not already being considered/haven't benefited from investment whereas 'non-regional' ones aren't?

 

[hwl]

As far as I am aware Network Rail don't differentiate between 'regional' and any other categorisation in their previous or future proposals for infrastructure enhancements, and schemes have to stack up on their own merit, independent of location or the type of service which would benefit.

Without wishing to turn this into another South East vs Rest of the UK funding fairness thread is there any evidence in the public domain that 'regional' infrastructure projects that have a solid case are not already being considered/haven't benefited from investment whereas 'non-regional' ones aren't?

I think the OP might not have picked up that many don't have a solid business case or be practical hence a special category. The Cambridge - Peterborough line speed increase example given seemed to ignore practicality of maintaining track geometry on the fens too.
The costs of various scheme are often only justifyable while something else is being renewed.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Easy way to sort it out is to force all the politicians (Mayors and Councillors included, along with the Civil Servants in the Transport Ministry) to spend a week in the regions, armed only with a one week season ticket (or a ALR) and the caveat that they must attempt to travel on a peak working to/from a non London city.

They'll suddenly find a lot of ££££ to sort out the regional rail network!

 

[Randomer]

The fact remains that in spite of unprecedented growth in passenger numbers, a lot of the regional routes that were running around with 2 and 3 carriage trains twenty years ago, are still doing so today.

This seems to be the key problem to me at least in the North and in some cases like TPE they actually have less seating capacity than the units the replaced as well. I'm not familiar enough with commuting journeys in areas like South Wales and the south west to know if a similar issue is the problem.

To turn the question at hand around slightly. Is demand being suppressed by the small overcrowded trains at peak times that the BCR on infrastructure development that would allow much longer trains (e.g. Manchester - Leeds electrification) looks much poorer because of it?

 

[yorksrob]

This seems to be the key problem to me at least in the North and in some cases like TPE they actually have less seating capacity than the units the replaced as well. I'm not familiar enough with commuting journeys in areas like South Wales and the south west to know if a similar issue is the problem.

To turn the question at hand around slightly. Is demand being suppressed by the small overcrowded trains at peak times that the BCR on infrastructure development that would allow much longer trains (e.g. Manchester - Leeds electrification) looks much poorer because of it?

I would say probably yes - and not just on peak trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

Easy way to sort it out is to force all the politicians (Mayors and Councillors included, along with the Civil Servants in the Transport Ministry) to spend a week in the regions, armed only with a one week season ticket (or a ALR) and the caveat that they must attempt to travel on a peak working to/from a non London city.

They'll suddenly find a lot of ££££ to sort out the regional rail network!

A rather blinkered view. For a start there’s plenty of politicians and ‘civil servants’ in the ‘transport ministry’ who commute in the peak to non London cities.

Whilst anecdote is not the best form of evidence, I have travelled regularly into non-London cities at peak time in the past few years (Birmingham, Glasgow, Sheffield, Leeds to name but 4) and none of them have remotely the level or scale of overcrowding that London does. I’ve lost count of the number of colleagues from ‘the regions’ who having experienced London commuting have said words to the effect of “how do you put up with that every day”.

That’s not to say that other cities don’t need investment - they do - but to suggest that the decision makers don’t understand the situation is just plain wrong.

 

[HSTEd]

My one experience on the Northern Line of peak time makes the crowding I see on TPE and the like with regularity seem quaint and positively spacious.

I would prefer major rail upgrades in the North but to say the passenger load densities seen there even approach those tolerated on the London network is just absurd.

 

[6Gman]

So essentially, it seems to be that the old political block against spending on the Regional railway network is still there, so I agree with the OP that politically there should be a change towards spending on it.

But there has been spending on the Regional railway network - what are all those catenary wires in the NW of England?

 

[6Gman]

Easy way to sort it out is to force all the politicians (Mayors and Councillors included, along with the Civil Servants in the Transport Ministry) to spend a week in the regions, armed only with a one week season ticket (or a ALR) and the caveat that they must attempt to travel on a peak working to/from a non London city.

They'll suddenly find a lot of ££££ to sort out the regional rail network!

Most councillors already live in the regions !

 

[yorksrob]

But there has been spending on the Regional railway network - what are all those catenary wires in the NW of England?

Given the unprecedented passenger growth over the last twenty years, they are an important step forward (and four carriage electric trains are undoubtedly a great improvement) but still too little, too late.