Is Grand Central a budget operation?"

[rattyben]

Moderator note: split from

Grand Central order Hitachi Tri-Modes - confirmed

The trains aren't bad quality, at least from a passenger point of view. They just aren't liked by enthusiasts! Apart from the fact that the ones I travel on (GWR) have awful seats, the fact that they started cracking which completely trashed GWML expresses for a few days and now have to be...

www.railforums.co.uk

There’s a lot of discussion about seat comfort and legroom but like it or not don’t forget GC is meant to be a budget operator.

 

[The Middle]

There’s a lot of discussion about seat comfort and legroom but like it or not don’t forget GC is meant to be a budget operator.

Have GC ever made this claim?

 

[ainsworth74]

There’s a lot of discussion about seat comfort and legroom but like it or not don’t forget GC is meant to be a budget operator.

Are they? They're often a not dissimilar price to LNER. For instance looking at a random morning next week from Northallerton to London you've got LNER charging £58 and £48 for the 0911 and 1111 respectively whilst GC are charging £45 and £42 for the 0959 and 1123 respectively. Cheaper sure but budget levels of cheaper? Going forward to the middle of May and all four of the above trains are between £35 and £44!

I'll accept that GC Only Anytime Single is a lot cheaper (£121 vs £181) but is of course much more restrictive. The GC Only Off-Peak Single is even closer to the Any Permitted Super Off-Peak Single at £78.90 vs £83.80 respectively. Again much more restrictive as well considering they're valid on the same services from Northallerton but the GC Only locks you to GC. Not sure it's worth the £5 saving personally!

GC may have been a budget operator when they first got going but those days are long past.

 

[brad465]

There’s a lot of discussion about seat comfort and legroom but like it or not don’t forget GC is meant to be a budget operator.

Has any IET fleet got standard class seating not considered ironing board-like?

 

[The Middle]

Has any IET fleet got standard class seating not considered ironing board-like?

The Lumo and Avanti fleets tend to get less stick than LNER and GWR

 

[brad465]

The Lumo and Avanti fleets tend to get less stick than LNER and GWR

Good to know. I've personally not been bothered by them, though I'm of a demographic that probably physically tolerates them better than others.

 

[J-2739]

The Lumo and Avanti fleets tend to get less stick than LNER and GWR

The Lump sets have got the tiniest armrests I've ever seen on any public tr vehicle. Assuming GC are not going for these.

 

[mpthomson]

There’s a lot of discussion about seat comfort and legroom but like it or not don’t forget GC is meant to be a budget operator.

GC isn't a budget operator and doesn't sell itself as that. it isn't perceived to be by its passengers either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

GC isn't a budget operator and doesn't sell itself as that. it isn't perceived to be by its passengers either.

Really? The impression I have of it is of an unreliable service (which rather likes stranding people when their train is cancelled) with inadequate luggage space that I'd only even consider if it was very cheap. I also find the interiors very stark, e.g. because of the colour scheme, lighting and lack of carpets. It feels downright cheap and nasty for me, and if it wasn't the "cheap" part I'd just avoid it like the plague.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Really? The impression I have of it is of an unreliable service (which rather likes stranding people when their train is cancelled) with inadequate luggage space that I'd only even consider if it was very cheap. I also find the interiors very stark, e.g. because of the colour scheme, lighting and lack of carpets. It feels downright cheap and nasty for me, and if it wasn't the "cheap" part I'd just avoid it like the plague.

similar could be said for all Arriva TOCs, I'd still rather a GC 180 over a XC voyager mind,

 

[Bletchleyite]

similar could be said for all Arriva TOCs, I'd still rather a GC 180 over a XC voyager mind,

To be fair my opinion of Arriva generally is that anything they touch turns to, well, nothing particularly good. As for the Voyager, at least it'll get me there reliably!

 

[Travelmonkey]

To be fair my opinion of Arriva generally is that anything they touch turns to, well, nothing particularly good. As for the Voyager, at least it'll get me there reliably!

If the staff turn up lol, but there is plenty of threads aleardy on that, I find GC have tended to be pretty good on my travels with good staff working well as a team,

 

[rattyben]

GC isn't a budget operator and doesn't sell itself as that. it isn't perceived to be by its passengers either.

“Value for money” as it describes itself, it is cheaper than LNER and that cost is reflected in a different level of service.

As someone who uses it fairly regularly that’s how I’ve always seen them but obviously neither of us can speak for their passengers unless you’ve seen marketing data that shows otherwise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

“Value for money” as it describes itself, it is cheaper than LNER and that cost is reflected in a different level of service.

As someone who uses it fairly regularly that’s how I’ve always seen them but obviously neither of us can speak for their passengers unless you’ve seen marketing data that shows otherwise.

It isn't a low cost in the sense of Lumo (i.e. super basic, one class, strongly yield managed fares) but it does largely sell itself on being cheaper (and secondarily direct services to places off the mainline).

 

[RailWonderer]

It isn't a low cost in the sense of Lumo (i.e. super basic, one class, strongly yield managed fares) but it does largely sell itself on being cheaper (and secondarily direct services to places off the mainline).

I suggested a while back it was a budget operator on count of price and scruffier interiors but then XC would be a budget operator on that merit which they aren't - as one of the most expensive operators on the network. I think this is more an issue of LNER being overpriced rather than GC being a budget operator. Hull Trains are cheaper than LNER too I think.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suggested a while back it was a budget operator on count of price and scruffier interiors but then XC would be a budget operator on that merit which they aren't - as one of the most expensive operators on the network. I think this is more an issue of LNER being overpriced rather than GC being a budget operator. Hull Trains are cheaper than LNER too I think.

I don't think I'd quite go with that. XC are just a very badly run "proper" TOC. GC specifically compete (in part) on being cheaper than LNER. They're certainly pretty much never more expensive, though like 1st being cheaper than Standard no doubt it happens occasionally.

Of course both are Arriva TOCs so they are likely to be of poorer quality than the other big groups, as Arriva is generally in my experience the poorest of the large bus groups in terms of the quality and presentation of basically all their services. Even the oft-lauded Chiltern has gone substantially downhill since they got control of it, and while DfT Northern is still pretty rubbish it's better than Arriva was.

 

[AlterEgo]

“Value for money” as it describes itself, it is cheaper than LNER and that cost is reflected in a different level of service.

But it’s not a budget operator. Lumo certainly is, GC isn’t.

As someone who uses it fairly regularly that’s how I’ve always seen them but obviously neither of us can speak for their passengers unless you’ve seen marketing data that shows otherwise.

As someone who used to work (sort of) for GC, handling their complaints and social media, they are seen as a local hero brand - even after being acquired by Arriva. In fact, GC’s marketing director a few years back went to great pains to disabuse complaint handlers that GC was a cheap and cheerful brand. This was backed up by customer research. They’re cheaper than LNER, certainly, but they don’t see themselves as a budget operator.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it’s not a budget operator. Lumo certainly is, GC isn’t.

Lumo follows the low-cost (Ryanair style-ish) model, GC doesn't, that doesn't make them not a budget operator.

As someone who used to work (sort of) for GC, handling their complaints and social media, they are seen as a local hero brand - even after being acquired by Arriva. In fact, GC’s marketing director a few years back went to great pains to disabuse complaint handlers that GC was a cheap and cheerful brand. This was backed up by customer research. They’re cheaper than LNER, certainly, but they don’t see themselves as a budget operator.

They might in that case do well to try making sure their operation, specifically how they treat people in disruption, doesn't come across as cheap (and definitely not cheerful).

My boycott of them continues until such time as they prove their ability to do this. "Your train is cancelled, come back tomorrow" is never an acceptable thing to say aside from conditions bad enough for the Government to have issued a warning not to travel due to things like severe weather.

 

[AlterEgo]

Lumo follows the low-cost (Ryanair style-ish) model, GC doesn't, that doesn't make them not a budget operator.

Try telling the company and its customer base that.

 

[DarloRich]

GC may have been a budget operator when they first got going but those days are long past.

Could that be a symptom of the recent unreliability? Maybe they will compete on price when they actually run thier timetabled services reliably!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Try telling the company and its customer base that.

I certainly don't think those of their customers who have been stranded by them would consider them a premium operation. Premium operations don't do that and consider it OK.

 

[AlterEgo]

I certainly don't think those of their customers who have been stranded by them would consider them a premium operation. Premium operations don't do that and consider it OK.

Nobody thinks it’s a premium operation either. The appeal of GC is it’s cheaper than LNER and serves London directly from provincial towns and cities otherwise not served. Hence it’s seen as a local hero brand that continues to attract patronage because locals prioritise using it partly out of fear of losing the service. That is why the customer base remains unusually tolerant of poor service.

 

[ainsworth74]

Could that be a symptom of the recent unreliability? Maybe they will compete on price when they actually run thier timetabled services reliably!

No not really, I did this for the first time years ago (pre-Covid) and it was a similar story. The walk-ups were only marginally cheaper than those valid on LNER (and in my view not worth the saving considering the level of restriction) and the APs were often cheaper but not dramatically so.

They are more competitive from somewhere like Hartlepool but that appears to be journey planners struggling to find itineraries that go via Darlington to access the LNER APs from Hartlepool rather than routeing onto TPE to York from Thornaby where it offers a walk-up instead.

For instance looking towards the end of May if you use a rubbish journey planner for the morning it will suggest the 0920 GC direct at £42.90 or the 0927 Northern changing at Thornaby and York for £92. Better planners (such as the Forums ) identify the 0927 but change a Thornaby and Darlington for LNER with an AP at £48.70. Obviously a longer journey (and hour longer!) with two changes (so more to go wrong!) but not exactly eye wateringly more expensive either.

I'm really not convinced by arguments that GC are a "budget" operator. Not a premium one for sure, but I don't think they're trying to suggest that they're anything other than a "full service" railway company.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm really not convinced by arguments that GC are a "budget" operator. Not a premium one for sure, but I don't think they're trying to suggest that they're anything other than a "full service" railway company.

I think I'd differentiate between the post-1990s air travel style low-cost model that Lumo sort of follows (pioneered by easyJet and Ryanair*) and whether they're primarily aimed at those who want to pay less.

They clearly are a full-service railway, but that doesn't stop them potentially being aimed at a cheaper market. Indeed, being a cheaper full-service option was how they largely started, wasn't it?

* Often Southwest Airlines is credited with this, but they have traditionally been more of a full service airline in many ways compared to the European operations, e.g. free hold luggage until recently.

 

[YorksLad12]

Compared to the GNER heyday, most operators could be considered a budget/no-frills operator. The shock at having to walk to a shop to get my first class food offering on a CrossCountry service from Newcastle to York will live with me forever

I'd say their competition is the coach service rather than LNER. GC's trains have Standard and First, catering, they don't charge for luggage, lights, heating, a roof... they just run to some odd places and charge less.

GC do at least run to Kings Cross, rather than stopping at "London (Finsbury Park)".

 

[azOOOOOma]

Their prices difference is now quite small but they used to be significantly cheaper. I often wondered when they started if they’d consider pushing Sunderland as a low cost alternative to Newcastle. Sunderland (Newcastle East) or Sunderland (for Newcastle). I get that people here are very tribal and that would cause an uproar but could see a benefit for those from down south.

 

[johntea]

They do sometimes often offer a cheap £10 - £20 advance fare from West Yorkshire but yes generally they're pretty close with LNER advance pricing otherwise

As long as you have some flexility in travel plans both LNER and Grand Central will get you to/from Yorkshire-London for under £50 each way even booking on the night before or even on the day, but if you need to specifically travel around the early morning / evening peaks that is where things become slightly more challenging!

Would be nice if they could call at Castleford rather than / in addition to Pontefract but one can dream!

I personally tried the coach option once and not for me, but it is a cheap last ditch resort I suppose!

 

[EJD799]

The Lumo and Avanti fleets tend to get less stick than LNER and GWR

I have not been on Lumo, but I think the LNER 801 seats are just as good, if not better than the Avanti seats (not sure about the LNER 800 seats). Now GWR 800/802 seats… those are pretty bad, at least for a flagship train.

 

[moonarrow458]

Grand Central don't necessarily scream budget to me, but definitely goimg for the cheaper than LNER vibe. Certainly the cl180s are much nicer for a passrnger in Standard class than LNERs azumas although as others say luggage space on the 180s is atrociously bad. Perhaps budget in terms of service when things go wrong.

This argument that Lumo is budget is one i don't buy. When they first started sure, but nowadays they seem to only, at least on advances when i've looked to travel, undercut the equivalent LNER services at a similar time by about £5. Their seats are a lot better than LNER in standard and when the price difference between LNER and Lumo (my friends in Edinburgh attest to this too) it's personally hard to see them as budget. The comparison to Ryanair just seems a bit lazy and not really grounded in reality. Sure they don't have a buffet unlike LNER, but neither does GWR who do similar length journeys particularly towards Cornwall and GWR is not considered budget.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This argument that Lumo is budget is one i don't buy. When they first started sure, but nowadays they seem to only, at least on advances when i've looked to travel, undercut the equivalent LNER services at a similar time by about £5. Their seats are a lot better than LNER in standard and when the price difference between LNER and Lumo (my friends in Edinburgh attest to this too) it's personally hard to see them as budget. The comparison to Ryanair just seems a bit lazy and not really grounded in reality. Sure they don't have a buffet unlike LNER, but neither does GWR who do similar length journeys particularly towards Cornwall and GWR is not considered budget.

Lumo operates on the "low cost" model. Remember that that model doesn't necessarily mean cheap (often BA isn't far off the price of easyJet) but is a specific model involving a single class of accommodation, a relatively high density interior and strongly yield managed prices. In part "low cost" refers to the costs of operating rather than the prices/fares.