Is Eurostar a Wasted Opportunity?

[CMS]

Best tell Eurostar that so they can take train 9165 out of the timetable.

Sorry, I was referring to the previous posters comments re St Pancras departures for Brussels! A 2030 departure from London wouldn't get to Belgium in time. The other way, Brussels to London, I think you could get away with a departure as late as about 2200.

 

[DarloRich]

I can only speculate DarloRich was travelling on a day that services had been declared dry owing to football travellers or similar – in which case they do only allow soft drinks through if they are full and sealed, to prevent concealment of alcohol.

A normal weekday preseason with beer available on board - I suspect it was simply a miss application of the rules. It wasn't worth a chew on.

 

[paul1609]

Something to do with the interaction of the signalling and on-board electronics. I don't quite understand it tbh, nor why it's not an issue at St Pancras and Ebbsfleet.

Its an interaction between the onboard electrics and dc electrification it causes a pcb on the train to burn out.
Eurostars dont travel over dual electrified tracks at either St Pancras or Ebbsfleet.

 

[island]

I think Ashford area on HS1 still uses TPWS instead of KVB and the 374s don’t like it.

I was close.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...ified-for-use-by-eurostar-e320-trainsets.html

374s don’t have AWS and the KVB installation at Ashford International is on the fritz.

 

[mpthomson]

Even accepting that it's security theatre, what are the stated reasons for the full bag x-ray, specifically what is supposedly different about catching a train to Paris from catching one to Nottingham? Is it that an attack is considered more likely on a higher profile service, rescue and recovery would be more difficult in the middle of a 25 mile tunnel, or something else?

A large device going off mid tunnel is a significant concern. it would very spectacular in publicity terms for whoever did it as it's likely to result in a very large number of casualties and would cause problems in getting an adequate response to it, though I'm sure that a) there's a plan for it and b) it's rehearsed fairly regularly.

 

[radamfi]

Eurostar Snap (similar to TGV Pop) is very popular and you can get relatively cheap non-flexible fares for the upcoming few weeks/month. Again, I would say that most Eurostar traffic do not think "I ought to hop over on the Eurostar later today/tomorrow", unless it's for business or family reasons. Leisure travellers can book in advance and get reasonable fares. Dover to Oostende is not really comparable to London to Paris, but I could see the 'political' argument for more Kent to Hauts-de-France journey opportunities.

Booking in advance means that you are relying on the weather being good. Before Eurostar I used to decide to go on a day trip or an overnight trip based on the weather. Eurotunnel caters for this market and offers cheap fares for short trips but not for those without cars. It would be perfectly reasonable to decide to go on a trip from London to Weymouth or from Groningen to Amsterdam at short notice.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Yes. And not having a HS1 HS2 link is even more of a waste.

 

[Daz28]

A large device going off mid tunnel is a significant concern. it would very spectacular in publicity terms for whoever did it as it's likely to result in a very large number of casualties and would cause problems in getting an adequate response to it, though I'm sure that a) there's a plan for it and b) it's rehearsed fairly regularly.

That would make sense, if it were not for the fact that there is no such security check on vehicles travelling on the Eurotunnel shuttle. You could do far more damage with a van or a lorry full of explosives than any passenger could carry on to the Eurostar. Passengers on coaches going to France don’t have to have their luggage X-rayed, so why do train passengers?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Fundamentally, Eurostar is operating like an airline. (Note that its competition was historically almost exclusively airlines!)

Actually I think that one remark sums up the whole situation very well. It's a train, but it's operating like an airline, with all the inconveniences that implies. Obviously you can't do away with passport control etc. because it's travelling across an international border, but in a way I guess my point is, wouldn't Eurostar attract more passengers if it started operating like - well, a train service.

The train length, which partly drive the frequency of the service, has historically mostly been set based on the Channel Tunnel safety standard requiring very long trains.

Uh??? how is a very long train safer than a shorter train in the tunnel?

 

[radamfi]

How often? Ran fast from Paris to Brussels whenever I’ve taken it.

And is going to be scrapped from April 2019

https://www.thalys.com/img/pdf/pres...1_PB_Nieuwe_bestemmingen__nieuw_aanbod_en.pdf
https://www.thalys.com/img/pdf/pres...0_CP_Nouvelle_offre__nouvelles_destinatio.pdf

 

[island]

Uh??? how is a very long train safer than a shorter train in the tunnel?

The emergency exits are every 350-375m in the tunnel so it is desirable that a train be at least that length with a through gangway.

 

[Bromley boy]

Uh??? how is a very long train safer than a shorter train in the tunnel?

Possibly so that part of the train is always adjacent to an escape tunnel.

Eurostars also had (may still have) the ability for the trains to be split and driven as independent units. So that in the event of a failure the “good” half could be reversed out of the tunnel.

 

[island]

373s do but I don’t think 374s can.

 

[CMS]

Booking in advance means that you are relying on the weather being good. Before Eurostar I used to decide to go on a day trip or an overnight trip based on the weather. Eurotunnel caters for this market and offers cheap fares for short trips but not for those without cars. It would be perfectly reasonable to decide to go on a trip from London to Weymouth or from Groningen to Amsterdam at short notice.

Sorry, I don't understand this point?! Surely every leisure journey no matter where, when or how you're going, you would hope for good weather?
I completely agree with you for London to Weymouth or Groningen to Amsterdam that's perfectly reasonable, but Brussels to Cambridge or London to Versailles is different - it's abroad. Unless you needed to go at short notice, you would plan ahead and could get a good fare.

If the weather is good one day and you feel like taking a leisure trip to make the most of it at short notice, the majority of people would go for a day trip to the nearest city, perhaps the seaside, a national park - not abroad to one of the Eurostar destinations - let's not forget London <> Paris is still 30 mins check in + 2h20, that's still a fair amount of travelling for a day/overnight trip.

 

[radamfi]

Sorry, I don't understand this point?! Surely every leisure journey no matter where, when or how you're going, you would hope for good weather?

But you can look at the weather forecast for tomorrow and have a reasonable expectation that the weather will be like that. Weather forecasts are a lot less reliable at predicting the weather several weeks in advance.

it's abroad.

What's relevant is how long is the journey and how far it is, not whether you are crossing a border. Antwerp to Breda is "abroad" but is hardly any distance at all. Other international services have reasonable walk on fares, such as Brussels to Amsterdam and Cologne to Amsterdam. Paris to Lyon is much further than Paris to London yet I can book the next train this evening for 61 euros.

 

[CMS]

But you can look at the weather forecast for tomorrow and have a reasonable expectation that the weather will be like that. Weather forecasts are a lot less reliable at predicting the weather several weeks in advance.



What's relevant is how long is the journey and how far it is, not whether you are crossing a border. Antwerp to Breda is "abroad" but is hardly any distance at all. Other international services have reasonable walk on fares, such as Brussels to Amsterdam and Cologne to Amsterdam. Paris to Lyon is much further than Paris to London yet I can book the next train this evening for 61 euros.

Ok, I see what you mean regarding the weather now! I still do not think this is a key consideration for Eurostar's leisure market though. Last minute travel is not the bulk of the business and the business should not focus on this in their pricing strategy - it's worth chasing the real money, which is big leisure bookings and business travellers. Then it will be able to invest this into projects for the masses.

Antwerp to Breda is not even remotely comparable to anything Eurostar offers, Kehl to Strasbourg is also abroad but you can see one from the other. I do get your point about Paris to Lyon but again, I think that the majority of people would expect to be able to do Paris-Lyon or London-Liverpool at short notice. Everybody knows the UK is not in Schengen, Eurostar is a high-speed rail service, not a conventional intercity line and there will be a premium for that and substantial border procedures to comply with, moreso than intra-Schengen, therefore last minute is not the norm.

 

[Bromley boy]

What's relevant is how long is the journey and how far it is, not whether you are crossing a border. Antwerp to Breda is "abroad" but is hardly any distance at all. Other international services have reasonable walk on fares, such as Brussels to Amsterdam and Cologne to Amsterdam. Paris to Lyon is much further than Paris to London yet I can book the next train this evening for 61 euros.

I imagine it comes down to economics as with the rest of the rail network, and indeed airlines.

Much of their customer base is business travellers who will pay a lot for fully flexibile tickets.

There would be nothing to stop you showing up at Eurostar’s offices in St Pancras and booking a day trip walk up fare (but expect to pay more for that flexibility).

Or you can book advanced tickets, trading flexibility for a better price.

If Eurostar can get an acceptable load factor onto their services using that combination (and they don’t run very many per day), why should they offer significant discounts to walk on passengers?

 

[radamfi]

Everybody knows the UK is not in Schengen, Eurostar is a high-speed rail service, not a conventional intercity line and there will be a premium for that and substantial border procedures to comply with, moreso than intra-Schengen, therefore last minute is not the norm.

But last minute was affordable before Eurostar came along. If we still had the cheap rail-sea-rail option like before then it would be OK.

 

[Bromley boy]

But last minute was affordable before Eurostar came along. If we still had the cheap rail-sea-rail option like before then it would be OK.

Last minute London - Paris, or last minute Kent Coast - Calais?

I can’t imagine the second market is big or lucrative enough to attract Eurostar (can you even go Ashford - Calais by Eurostar?).

 

[EM2]

But last minute was affordable before Eurostar came along. If we still had the cheap rail-sea-rail option like before then it would be OK.

If the market was still there, operators would be filling it.

 

[Ianno87]

But is the issue not just the Eurostar timetable. It has to find a path through the tunnel between the car trains then up the shared HS tracks to Brussels or Paris

Essentially there are 2 standard Eurostar paths flighted through the tunnel every half hour in each direction giving a notional 4tph standard pattern timetable, but not all used of course (but you can see the missing paths in the train numbering sequence, last time I checked). Trains are then back-timed to St Pancras depending upon Ashford/Ebbsfleet stops.

In France, in the continent-bound direction, the pair every half hour is notionally a Paris followed by a Brussels, enabling the Brussels to pull in at Lille while the Paris pulls away (I think the Paris at least used to then flight behind the half-hourly Lille Flandres-Gare du Nord non-stop TGV - I was dorky enough to work out the LGV Nord standard hour once)

 

[fowler9]

Only use eurostar once and it was brilliant. Thing is it was a very specific trip. We flew from Liverpool to Amsterdam very early in the morning and used the train to get back same day stopping at Antwerp and Brussels for about 2 1/2 hours each. Had a great day. If you just wanted to go from Liverpool to Amsterdam for a few hours or even a couple of days you are not going to use Eurostar unless taking the train is part of what you want to do, hence I am flying in November. Eurostar is good, it is nothing more than a novelty for me though.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

No, still not. It seems that this will be no quick fix as on the Eurostar website's "travel updates" section they ave actually published an Ashford provisional timetable until 30/09 with ALL Ashford to Brussels stops removed and many trains stopping at Ebbsfleet instead.



Eurostar Snap (similar to TGV Pop) is very popular and you can get relatively cheap non-flexible fares for the upcoming few weeks/month. Again, I would say that most Eurostar traffic do not think "I ought to hop over on the Eurostar later today/tomorrow", unless it's for business or family reasons. Leisure travellers can book in advance and get reasonable fares. Dover to Oostende is not really comparable to London to Paris, but I could see the 'political' argument for more Kent to Hauts-de-France journey opportunities.



Couldn't agree more! I seem to remember that Thalys said it has been selling just as many tickets to Rotterdam than to Amsterdam, it also has great connectivity to other NL destinations, particularly The Hague, Utrecht and Breda. All of these are business hubs and developing their leisure markets. In terms of Antwerp and Schiphol, I think they could be served in the event that the current border issues are resolved and more services can be added.



Indeed! It's highly plausible in the Schengen zone in particular.



I see what you mean but it doesn't work. What currently happens is very close to what you mention though (i.e. majority of Brussels departures departing at the start of the odd hour, Paris departures hourly).

Airlines may offer 'clockface departures' but the planes actually depart at very precise times. In addition, the non-standard times actually aid the flow of customers as it's easier to remember 1258 or 1504 than 'half past X' and causes less confusion for international customers. Many parts of the world use only 12 or 24 hour clocks, in German they say 'half to' not 'half past', so avoiding the standard xx00, xx15, xx30 reduces the risk of confusion. 1422 is 1422 to everyone.

Plus customer demand means that there are peaks and quiet times so resources need to match this - many people want to go from London>Paris on Friday mid-afternoon and many people from Paris>London on Sunday evening, so you need to have inconsistent service intervals. The Marseille train needs to get back to London all in a day because there is no E* personnel or maintenance facility south of Paris. Currently it leaves at 0719, has a 40 min turnaround in Marseille, departing back at 1422UK, pausing in Lille for 76 mins arriving at 2212. You cannot make that service 'clockface' without seriously sweating that train and pushing crew hours to the limits.

2030 is too late for a Brussels departure because high-speed lines in Belgium actually close overnight for various reasons and 1830 would be too early for a final departure. And 0700 is too late for the first Paris departure.

Also stopping at Ebbsfleet only incurs about a 6 min penalty so, the two 'Expresses' would only be 10 mins ahead in Paris if they got a clear run. It would also mean that staff would have to filter passengers by checking their tickets when boarding because there would be a good few people who would by a perhaps cheaper ticket on the 4 mins later departure, get to St Pancras and chance their way onto the faster, xx00 which would mean that train would be rammed, which if already full and overbooked could mean a huge problem for Channel Tunnel safety.

“0700 is too late for the first Paris departure”

Well. It’s a minute earlier than now...

 

[Bromley boy]

Only use eurostar once and it was brilliant. Thing is it was a very specific trip. We flew from Liverpool to Amsterdam very early in the morning and used the train to get back same day stopping at Antwerp and Brussels for about 2 1/2 hours each. Had a great day. If you just wanted to go from Liverpool to Amsterdam for a few hours or even a couple of days you are not going to use Eurostar unless taking the train is part of what you want to do, hence I am flying in November. Eurostar is good, it is nothing more than a novelty for me though.

To be fair if you wanted to go from London - Amsterdam I suspect most would probably still fly. The end to end journey isn’t quick (or cheap!) enough to be fully competitive with air.

 

[johnnychips]

We used to go (still do in fact) from Doncaster to Brussels about five times a year on business (though not business class) on Friday evening and had the choice of TPE to Manchester Airport then VLM to Antwerp and a train to Brussels; or ECML to Kings Cross and Eurostar to Brussels. We always chose the plane every time until VLM ceased its evening service. We've been taking the Eurostar since then and it's good. Not as exciting or comfortable as flying but no problems with bookings or seat comfort, and on a couple of occasions when things have gone spectacularly wrong the customer service has been excellent. VLM are reintroducing the route, though not at convenient times, but if they were, ironically I would be worried that TPE would let us down going to the airport, which they never ever did a few years ago.

 

[whoosh]

London to Paris or Brussels by Eurostar takes just over 2 hours - comparable to London-Manchester or London-Leeds journey times, and the distance as-the-crow-flies isn't that much further.

As the crow flies? Seriously? Let's just cross the channel where it's three times as wide shall we?

 

[gord]

To be fair if you wanted to go from London - Amsterdam I suspect most would probably still fly. The end to end journey isn’t quick (or cheap!) enough to be fully competitive with air.

I'm in Amsterdam right now having used the Eurostar end to end yesterday. It cost us £35 each (although I then bought an upgrade to Standard Premier) which I think is very cheap. Yes, it is almost 4 hours long, but that's not bad for the distance. It was so convenient though. Straight from train to tram in Amsterdam and to our hotel. If they do enhance the route, it would be useful if they start selling tram tickets on board like they do for the Metro in Paris. Another big plus for us was not having to wait around for bags on arrival.

There were large queues at customs in St Pancras but they moved really quickly and I found the whole process far more efficient than the airport.

So a big thumbs up for the Amsterdam Eurostar from me. But to be fair, l'm on a leisure trip so don't need to be places quickly.

 

[thejuggler]

We used to go (still do in fact) from Doncaster to Brussels about five times a year on business (though not business class) on Friday evening and had the choice of TPE to Manchester Airport then VLM to Antwerp and a train to Brussels; or ECML to Kings Cross and Eurostar to Brussels. We always chose the plane every time until VLM ceased its evening service. We've been taking the Eurostar since then and it's good. Not as exciting or comfortable as flying but no problems with bookings or seat comfort, and on a couple of occasions when things have gone spectacularly wrong the customer service has been excellent. VLM are reintroducing the route, though not at convenient times, but if they were, ironically I would be worried that TPE would let us down going to the airport, which they never ever did a few years ago.

I still remember at the time the tunnel was being built fantasy marketing suggesting it would bring new services direct to Paris and Brussels from ECML destinations.

 

[jopsuk]

I still remember at the time the tunnel was being built fantasy marketing suggesting it would bring new services direct to Paris and Brussels from ECML destinations.

It was more than just marketing hype. They built trains (both Eurostar and Nightstar), tested them for platform clearance across the network, even built some customs and immigration infrastructure in places.

And then ran into the twin threats of the nascent budget airlines and the UK's restrictive and regressive border policies.

 

[DarloRich]

But last minute was affordable before Eurostar came along. If we still had the cheap rail-sea-rail option like before then it would be OK.

we do: Dutchflyer £55 each way. Seems a decent price to me.