Is electrifying the North Downs Line worth it?

[pj13]

3rd rail to Salisbury sounds good, but what would happen to services going further to Exeter?
Where would you stop? As if it stops somewhere (Salisbury for example), routes that extend from that station to another would pose more questions as to why wasn't the electrification extended?

 

[zwk500]

3rd rail to Salisbury sounds good, but what would happen to services going further to Exeter?
Where would you stop? As if it stops somewhere (Salisbury for example), routes that extend from that station to another would pose more questions as to why wasn't the electrification extended?

We're getting further and further away from the OP's question, but you'd use bi-modes.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

We're getting further and further away from the OP's question, but you'd use bi-modes.

Or: continue third rail electrification to Exeter, or use 25 kV overhead between Salisbury and Exeter with Exeter trains being dual voltage.

 

[zwk500]

Or: continue third rail electrification to Exeter, or use 25 kV overhead between Salisbury and Exeter with Exeter trains being dual voltage.

3rd rail won't be extended to Salisbury, let alone Exeter. I don't see OLE ever making it's way towards Templecombe, tbh. The Line just isn't busy enough.

The two options I see are: Convert Basingstoke-Brokenhurst to OLE, then wire the Salisbury lines, or extend 3rd rail to beyond Worting Junction and to Romsey, then wire Andover-Salisbury and Romsey-Salisbury with OLE. The latter is more likely.

 

[Chrisgr31]

With the changes in technology, hybrid, battery and hydrogen power, I really don't see any possibility of any serious extension of third rail electrification anywhere. I'm pretty sure it's not within the DfT's long term plans.

I wouldn't want to try to write the safety argument for it against all the other possibilities!

If its not in their long term plans you have to ask why the RSSB are currently working on a report in to whether 3rd rail can be done more safely, and Network Rail and GTR have been doing initial work on a business case for electrifying Uckfield, which has, apparently, included a basic survey of the route.

 

[davetheguard]

With the changes in technology, hybrid, battery and hydrogen power,

Well that is the Treasury's view to avoid doing anything or spending any money. It's another example of the can being kicked down the road.

This is something that has been discussed many times by Roger Ford in Modern Railways - "bionic duckweed" as he dismissingly calls it, is the new electrification. Except he knows it isn't; certainly for main line operation or freight you need REAL electrification: put the third rail down in the remaining gaps in the South East network and have a rolling programme of putting the wires up elsewhere!

 

[AM9]

Well that is the Treasury's view to avoid doing anything or spending any money. It's another example of the can being kicked down the road.

This is something that has been discussed many times by Roger Ford in Modern Railways - "bionic duckweed" as he dismissingly calls it, is the new electrification. Except he knows it isn't; certainly for main line operation or freight you need REAL electrification: put the third rail down in the remaining gaps in the South East network and have a rolling programme of putting the wires up elsewhere!

I assume by your inclusion of freight and the use of the capitalised 'REAL electrification', you mean 25kV. If there is any ambition of running 'REAL' freight and fast and frequent passenger services, 'real electrification' using 3rd rail would forever be a constraint on those services.

 

[30907]

I assume by your inclusion of freight and the use of the capitalised 'REAL electrification', you mean 25kV. If there is any ambition of running 'REAL' freight and fast and frequent passenger services, 'real electrification' using 3rd rail would forever be a constraint on those services.

Don't think the North Downs is ever going to warrant >100mph passenger or have much heavy freight.

 

[davetheguard]

I assume by your inclusion of freight and the use of the capitalised 'REAL electrification', you mean 25kV. If there is any ambition of running 'REAL' freight and fast and frequent passenger services, 'real electrification' using 3rd rail would forever be a constraint on those services.

No, by real electrification I meant actually putting the wires up and the third rail down - rather than batteries, flywheels, hydrogen etc. I agree 25Kv is superior to third rail, but I can't realistically see a case being made for it on the North Downs or for the Uckfield line.

I agree entirely with 30907 that there's never going to be any high speed operation on the North Downs route and probably not much freight either; but passenger trains wouldn't half rip up Dorking Bank in record time!

 

[AM9]

but passenger trains wouldn't half rip up Dorking Bank in record time!

Which is a very expensive spectator sport at the expense of the public purse.

 

[davetheguard]

Which is a very expensive spectator sport at the expense of the public purse.

Of course it would be, and impossible to justify if if it didn't have other benefits as well: sparks' effect; modal shift; cheaper operation; and reduction in pollution & noise.

 

[JonathanH]

Of course it would be, and impossible to justify if if it didn't have other benefits as well: sparks' effect; modal shift; cheaper operation; and reduction in pollution & noise.

It isn't going to be much quicker though without straightening out curves and more trains can't be run without resignalling.

Given the running time from Reading to Gatwick fits nicely with the use of three units on a three hour cycle, there is very little incentive to do much with journey times.

Cheaper operation and less pollution is clearly attractive but it requires the up front investment.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Given much of NDL is already electrified and that its a mixture of electrified / non-electrified sections along the route lends itself to BEMU's more than Uckfield so imv no need to electrify it.