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Is Communism Fatally Flawed ?

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JamesRowden

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So why has socialism rarely been a long term success then?

The leaders being accountable to the public via elections is a socialist system. People being able to own/buy/sell land is a capitalist system. The NHS is a communist system. The systems that we see as normal in this country are made up of all three of those philosophies.
 
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AlterEgo

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The leaders being accountable to the public via elections is a socialist system. People being able to own/buy/sell land is a capitalist system. The NHS is a communist system. The systems that we see as normal in this country are made up of all three of those philosophies.

Eh...?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Everyone on the left (rightly) decries Hitler and his ethnic cleansing and murdering of opponents. Few people of the same persuasion mention the5,000,000+ deaths that Stalin caused.

The "ethnic cleansing" of the Nazi regime was far more advanced in its ideology than the more localised instances seen in other parts of the world, as the Jews as a race would have been totally and utterly eradicated had Hitler achieved his aim of world domination and the 1000-year Reich had been established.
 

Butts

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The "ethnic cleansing" of the Nazi regime was far more advanced in its ideology than the more localised instances seen in other parts of the world, as the Jews as a race would have been totally and utterly eradicated had Hitler achieved his aim of world domination and the 1000-year Reich had been established.

However the total numbers eradicated by Stalin and Mao whether deliberate or through economic mismanagement are said to exceed those of Adolf Hitler.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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However the total numbers eradicated by Stalin and Mao whether deliberate or through economic mismanagement are said to exceed those of Adolf Hitler.

Yes, but you need to read my posting again which made reference to what would have been the case had Hitler achieved both world domination and the establishment of the 1000-year Reich.
 

deltic

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True communism is paradoxically found mainly in a very few religious communities where all assets are held in common and each contributes as they are able to the community without gaining personally. It tends to work only at a very small scale.
 

Peter Mugridge

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which is why there are no people alive who were also alive in the nineteenth century.

This does not in any way change my point, but having read this last night I find, to my great surprise, that this was on the BBC website this morning:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38134004



When Emma Morano was born, Umberto I was still reigning over Italy, Fiat had only just been established and Milan Football Club was still a few weeks off creation.

On Tuesday, this otherwise unassuming woman marks her 117th birthday, looking back on a life which has not only spanned three centuries, but also survived an abusive marriage which started with blackmail, the loss of her only son and a diet which most would describe as anything but balanced.

Ms Morano, the oldest of eight siblings, all of whom she has outlived, was born on 29 November, 1899, in the Piedmont region of Italy.

So there is still one!
 

Barn

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Communism inherently requires intensive, centralised control by the state and cannot exist without it. The level of control required naturally has a corrupting influence on leaders. Added to this is the fact that the whole essence of the ideology is that the 'revolution' is more important than any one person, which allows for, if not encourages, if not requires, abuses of human rights. The laudable ideals of communism are not worth what must be done to achieve it: the ends don't justify the means.
 

Butts

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Yes, but you need to read my posting again which made reference to what would have been the case had Hitler achieved both world domination and the establishment of the 1000-year Reich.

Indeed, had he not had to delay Operation Barbarossa due to being held up in the Balkans one wonders what might have ensued. Also a lot of Ukranians were prepared to fight alongside Germany against the Russians but were not utilised.

I guess had Hitler been successful in his ultimate ambition of dominating the World more poor souls would have perished than those that actually did.
 

JamesRowden

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The first definition of socialism that I find on the internet is the idea that the people together make the decisions. Extreme socialism would involve having a referendum for everything, which would obviously be impractical.

The definition of communism that I find on the internet is the idea of sharing things (like the NHS being publicly owned), with people receiving things from the shared resource purely based upon need (as one does from the NHS) and people contributing to the shared resource based upon their ability to pay (as one funds the NHS via our tax system where those who earn more pay more).
 

AlterEgo

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The first definition of socialism that I find on the internet is the idea that the people together make the decisions. Extreme socialism would involve having a referendum for everything, which would obviously be impractical.

The definition of communism that I find on the internet is the idea of sharing things (like the NHS being publicly owned), with people receiving things from the shared resource purely based upon need (as one does from the NHS) and people contributing to the shared resource based upon their ability to pay (as one funds the NHS via our tax system where those who earn more pay more).

To quote Trump:

"Wrong."

Socialism is: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

The NHS is not communist. The NHS is a healthcare service. By your logic, the DWP and many other government departments are communist.

I wish people wouldn't be so absolutist on the internet.
 

talltim

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Has that ever happened anywhere and if not how do you know ?
OK, I'll reverse the argument. Communism can't work unless everyone wants to do it.
As mentioned above, certain religious communities have practised it for years (centuries), think monasteries. Also there were various communes in the 60s that worked, for a while. Because the people that joined them wanted to be there they worked. However people grow up and change, their priorities change, possibly someone joins simply to become a leader and they fail/fade away.
Communism can't work at a national level because the people won't all subscribe to the idea.
 
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Butts

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The first definition of socialism that I find on the internet is the idea that the people together make the decisions. Extreme socialism would involve having a referendum for everything, which would obviously be impractical.

The definition of communism that I find on the internet is the idea of sharing things (like the NHS being publicly owned), with people receiving things from the shared resource purely based upon need (as one does from the NHS) and people contributing to the shared resource based upon their ability to pay (as one funds the NHS via our tax system where those who earn more pay more).

Should the NHS not be free at the point of delivery.....????

It no longer is for a lot of people have to pay for Eye Tests, Glasses, Prescriptions, Dental Treatment et al :idea:
 

JamesRowden

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Should the NHS not be free at the point of delivery.....????

It no longer is for a lot of people have to pay for Eye Tests, Glasses, Prescriptions, Dental Treatment et al :idea:

That is an example of where less communist later governments have made modifications to it.

I don't have a personal opinion as to whether the things you list should be completely free or not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To quote Trump:

"Wrong."

Socialism is: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

The NHS is not communist. The NHS is a healthcare service. By your logic, the DWP and many other government departments are communist.

I wish people wouldn't be so absolutist on the internet.

Your definition of socialism does not contradict the one that I stated. It does not exclude the ability of a majority to exploit a minority unlike communism.

I think you are confusing the idea of communism with the methods that certain people have used to implement it. Or perhaps the problem is that original word has come to also be used to mean the extreme methods thus producing ambiguity.
 

Deerfold

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This does not in any way change my point, but having read this last night I find, to my great surprise, that this was on the BBC website this morning:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38134004


So there is still one!

There are 3 people reliably documented as having been born in the 19th century who are alive today.

The other 2 are Violet Brown, born 10/03/1900 and Nabi Tajima, born 04/08/1900.
 

Tetchytyke

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Or that people would become lazy? There would be no incentive to improve.

That works only if you believe in the fallacy that the amount you are paid directly correlates to how worthy your job is and how hard you work. It also only works if you believe in the fallacy that people are solely motivated by money.

I think most of us agree that what we earn doesn't bear much correlation to how worthy our job is and how hard we work. To an extent it correlates to how much training we need for it, but mainly it correlates to how scarce the role is.

The obvious example is the extreme example of the CEOs who earn in a day what their shop floor workers earn in six months. But even beyond that, there are plenty of examples. I earn roughly what a lower-middle level nurse or teacher earns, yet I don't have to work nights, don't have that level of professional responsibility for other people and don't need a degree to do my job. In my last job I earned pretty much the same as my wife, a Clinical Psychologist, who needed a degree, a Masters and a PhD to qualify in her job. Yet I'm considering a change in career to teaching, even though it won't give me any more money.

AlterEgo said:
Socialism is: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

The NHS is not communist. The NHS is a healthcare service.

The National Health Service is a socialist construct. The NHS is the means of production and it- at least for now- is owned and regulated by the community.

The NHS may be a "healthcare service", but in many other countries health provision is provided privately, where the capitalist market decides who should get care and how much it should cost. In this country that isn't the case, although I don't give it long.

Of course people will argue that "socialism has failed" if they don't consider key socialist constructs like the NHS or social security as socialist at all. But I think people will realise the value of socialism once the NHS and social welfare for disabled people has gone.
 

70014IronDuke

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The "ethnic cleansing" of the Nazi regime was far more advanced in its ideology than the more localised instances seen in other parts of the world, as the Jews as a race would have been totally and utterly eradicated had Hitler achieved his aim of world domination and the 1000-year Reich had been established.

It is true that Serbs are not brought up en mass to believe Croats (or Bosnyaks) are inferior, sub-humans, a destructive bacillus within the human race that needs to be eradicated for the master race to be able to flourish - nor vice versa.

In this sense, I agree that Nazi ideology was 'more advanced' (i'd prefer to say 'more degraded') than the 'ideology' (such as it was, ie extreme nationalism) that underpinned such ethnic conflicts as we saw in the 1990s in former Yugoslavia.

However, communism - meaning some form of Marxist-Leninism - was yet 'more advanced' (using your terminology) than Nazism in the sense that

a) Clearly, if you weren't both Aryan, and prepared to subscribe to Nazi thinking on being Aryan, Nazism was bad news. This was true even if you weren't Jewish, Slav (Slavs being the next set of barely human ranking on Hitler's list), Black or Roma or mentally handicapped.

b) in contrast, communism's universalism attracted (and attracts) people of all ethnic groups, yet at the same time, its very inherent contradictions allowed the leadership to enact "class cleansing" ( class warfare, to eliminate enemies of the people in traditional communist terminology) whenever the need arose, which is and was fairly frequent.

It is a bizarre, cruel twist of fate, for example, that German communists were more likely to survive WW2 in Nazi prison camps than they were in Soviet ones. (Stalin had all murdered, I believe in a steelworks.)

This is precisely the problem when Marxism took over, anywhere. As someone else noted, for the Marxist, the end justifies the means. So any form of violence that can be used to rid the world of the enemies of the people (capitalists and kulaks etc on the way to taking power) is ok. It is valid. It is just.

This means that the most violent, ruthless leader gets to the top - by definition - and when he (or she) is at the top, and has won the battle to take power, then anyone who criticises him (either in reality or in the leader's imagination), then that person can and will be denounced as a traitor, a capitalist revisionist or whatever - and eliminated in turn.

This all-enveloping, brutal process happened every time communism took power. And it is still happening today - see testimonies of N Korean refugees who make it to the south. for such people, even China is a breath of fresh political air.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
True communism is paradoxically found mainly in a very few religious communities where all assets are held in common and each contributes as they are able to the community without gaining personally. It tends to work only at a very small scale.

You may want to term such communities as living "true communism" - but in the normal sense of the word, this is not communism at all, and has nothing to do with the thinking promoted by Engels, Marx or Lenin. This was atheistic, and militantly atheistic at that. (all religions were outlawed in the early stages of communist regimes. After the authorities realised they would not go away so easily, they somehow tolerated, but still sought to infiltrate and eliminate any religious belief.)
 

DarloRich

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Just read Animal Farm:

George Orwell: Animal Farm

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which"

“No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?”

“Comrades!' he cried. 'You do not imagine, I hope, that we pigs are doing this in a spirit of selfishness and privilege? Many of us actually dislike milk and apples. I dislike them myself. Our sole object in taking these things is to preserve our health. Milk and apples (this has been proved by Science, comrades) contain substances absolutely necessary to the well-being of a pig. We pigs are brainworkers. The whole management and organisation of this farm depend on us. Day and night we are watching over your welfare. It is for your sake that we drink the milk and eat those apples.”
 

Calthrop

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There are 3 people reliably documented as having been born in the 19th century who are alive today.

The other 2 are Violet Brown, born 10/03/1900 and Nabi Tajima, born 04/08/1900.

But with the above "other two", one is apt to get into a bit of a minefield -- which century does any year **00 belong to? (I can accept, intellectually, that -- actually counting years -- 1900 was the last year of the 19th century; but it feels wrong !)
 

Deerfold

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But with the above "other two", one is apt to get into a bit of a minefield -- which century does any year **00 belong to? (I can accept, intellectually, that -- actually counting years -- 1900 was the last year of the 19th century; but it feels wrong !)

x00 always belongs to the x-1th century, however it might feel.

There's only one person left alive born in the 1800s though. <D
 

Calthrop

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Though I believe that some genuine doubt is expressed, among bright and informed people as well as dimbulbs. I recall a passage in Solzhenitsyn's The First Circle: it's 1949, about to turn 1950, and a bunch of eggheads are heatedly arguing about whether this will or will not be the exact mid-point of the 20th century. Admittedly they're in a prison-camp, if a relatively luxurious one: could be that they're bored and frustrated, and enjoying arguing just for the sake of it.
 

Deerfold

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Though I believe that some genuine doubt is expressed, among bright and informed people as well as dimbulbs. I recall a passage in Solzhenitsyn's The First Circle: it's 1949, about to turn 1950, and a bunch of eggheads are heatedly arguing about whether this will or will not be the exact mid-point of the 20th century. Admittedly they're in a prison-camp, if a relatively luxurious one: could be that they're bored and frustrated, and enjoying arguing just for the sake of it.

I'm struggling to find any source that says other than a century is Jan first x01 to Dec 31 (x+1)00 but plenty that say that.
 

deltic

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You may want to term such communities as living "true communism" - but in the normal sense of the word, this is not communism at all, and has nothing to do with the thinking promoted by Engels, Marx or Lenin. This was atheistic, and militantly atheistic at that. (all religions were outlawed in the early stages of communist regimes. After the authorities realised they would not go away so easily, they somehow tolerated, but still sought to infiltrate and eliminate any religious belief.)[/QUOTE]

Hence why I said it is a paradox - because the only groups that have really achieved common ownership which is supposedly a fundamental element of communism are the very groups which communist countries have tried to ban. Marx seemed to be of the view that people turned to religion because of their unhappyness with society and if you resolved that then people will turn away from it.
 

Butts

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Anyone interested in this topic could do worse that view The Timewatch program available on I Player that looks back how Russia/USSR has been portrayed on UK Television over the years.

There is some useful insight into how Russians think and still express confidence in someone like Putin despite their obvious impoverishment.
 

Busaholic

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There are 3 people reliably documented as having been born in the 19th century who are alive today.

The other 2 are Violet Brown, born 10/03/1900 and Nabi Tajima, born 04/08/1900.

So they're immortal? Someone's always going to be the oldest person in the world, often only for a few weeks or less, but it hardly disproves my point that we are all fatally flawed, so any systems we create to live by will be fatally flawed too. Capitalism inexorably leads to a monopoly if unfettered, which is why we try to create ways to prevent it, some a lot less successful than others. I believe there is more than one commercial organisation whose stated aim is to become the only supplier worldwide in goods/services.
 

70014IronDuke

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Hence why I said it is a paradox - because the only groups that have really achieved common ownership which is supposedly a fundamental element of communism are the very groups which communist countries have tried to ban. Marx seemed to be of the view that people turned to religion because of their unhappyness with society and if you resolved that then people will turn away from it.

Apologies for missing this. Understood now.
 

Deerfold

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So they're immortal? Someone's always going to be the oldest person in the world, often only for a few weeks or less, but it hardly disproves my point that we are all fatally flawed, so any systems we create to live by will be fatally flawed too.

No - You claimed that there was no-one alive today born in the 19th century, Peter mentioned there was 1 and I mentioned that there were actually 3. How you get from that to thinking I'm claiming anyone is immortal I don't understand. I did not take issue with any of your other claims.
 

Busaholic

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No - You claimed that there was no-one alive today born in the 19th century, Peter mentioned there was 1 and I mentioned that there were actually 3. How you get from that to thinking I'm claiming anyone is immortal I don't understand. I did not take issue with any of your other claims.

TBH I couldn't be bothered to research whether there was a tiny possibility that one, two or three of the hundreds of millions of people born in the 19th century was still alive, because I knew someone would be on the case (you being the obvious contender).By the way, I seem to remember all the stuff about Millenium bugs, all the worldwide celebrations of the new century, etc, fixed on 1st January, 2000, so I'm afraid you (and I, because I harboured a similar belief to you) lost the argument on that one.
 

Deerfold

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TBH I couldn't be bothered to research whether there was a tiny possibility that one, two or three of the hundreds of millions of people born in the 19th century was still alive, because I knew someone would be on the case (you being the obvious contender).By the way, I seem to remember all the stuff about Millenium bugs, all the worldwide celebrations of the new century, etc, fixed on 1st January, 2000, so I'm afraid you (and I, because I harboured a similar belief to you) lost the argument on that one.

I'm sorry - I didn't realise you blindy claimed things were facts. I assumed that, like me, you'd appreciate being better informed if you erred about something. I didn't get on your case - I merely looked into Peter's comment about it as I was interested in what he said and whilst looking found the other people I mentioned.

The fact that someone chose a catchy name for a bug and people chose to celebrate the end of the 1900s does not redefine the definition of what the 20th century is.

I chose to celebrate the start of the 2000s and the start of the 21st century, a year apart.

To repeat:

I'm struggling to find any source that says other than a century [as in the xxth century] is Jan first x01 to Dec 31 (x+1)00 but plenty that say that.

Find me some that disagree and I might see a case for me having lost the argument.
 
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