• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Is Blackpool North over-served?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,459
Location
The North
I think that's fair. However, I don't think it's particularly relevant because London commuterland is quite different from Blackpool in its demand for services, most notably because a lot of people commute to London from these places, and far fewer commute to Manchester from Blackpool (though some do).

Blackpool has had a big increase in capacity, with the Castlefield services mostly being 6x24m and the Victoria service being 4x20m, as against what was usually a single 2x23m DMU in years gone by. When that starts getting busy is time to increase it.
That’s the point. Demand. It’s a case of growing the service and it benefits more than just Blackpool, but the cities it connects to - I.e.Liverpool & Manchester have a bigger employment catchment area. People commute to London and it’s how it works in the south east, whereas that culture needs to be grown more so in the north west. Therefore given the thread is leaning towards a reduction in services, it is completely counterintuitive
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,098
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That’s the point. Demand. It’s a case of growing the service and it benefits more than just Blackpool, but the cities it connects to - I.e.Liverpool & Manchester have a bigger employment catchment area. People commute to London and it’s how it works in the south east, whereas that culture needs to be grown more so in the north west.

Does it? Long distance commuting is not a desirable thing, that it is there in the SE is probably unavoidable due to high house prices (and Manchester risks going that way too as its house prices are going through the roof), but encouraging it is a bad idea.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

To be pendantic, it's always been served by a tramway until 2012 as from then it's actually a light rail system not a modern tramway.

It's a rail vehicle that runs on the road. It's a tram. It's now a modern one.
 

52290

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2015
Messages
728
It was at one time, but I believe the county council headquarters are now based in Preston.
Lancaster is still the county town of Lancashire, Preston is the administrative centre. I know, I worked at County Hall for many years, some of which were in an office with a good view of the railway.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
I'd extend Preston-Manchester Vic back to Fleetwood. I can't see it happening, though; Fleetwood is now served by a modern tramway.

Then you get into business case semantics.

Extending the Preston-Vic to Blackpool as an additional service (with zero infrastructure) may have a better case than Fleetwood (that requires infrastructure)
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Does it? Long distance commuting is not a desirable thing, that it is there in the SE is probably unavoidable due to high house prices (and Manchester risks going that way too as its house prices are going through the roof), but encouraging it is a bad idea.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



It's a rail vehicle that runs on the road. It's a tram. It's now a modern one.
I disagree, a light rail system may look like a tramway but actually operates at a higher frequency.

Indeed the newer light rail trams run at a frequency of 10 to 15 mins while the older trams run at a frequency of 20 to 30 mins, that in itself is evidence that it is a light rail system with a higher frequency of services.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,459
Location
The North
Does it? Long distance commuting is not a desirable thing, that it is there in the SE is probably unavoidable due to high house prices (and Manchester risks going that way too as its house prices are going through the roof), but encouraging it is a bad idea.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



It's a rail vehicle that runs on the road. It's a tram. It's now a modern one.

It’s only 40 miles from Blackpool to Manchester, which is not too dissimilar to Southend to London or Leeds to Manchester. The whole northern powerhouse rail project is about expanding the employment markets so as to attract businesses.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
It’s only 40 miles from Blackpool to Manchester, which is not too dissimilar to Southend to London or Leeds to Manchester. The whole northern powerhouse rail project is about expanding the employment markets so as to attract businesses.

And Blackpool / South Fylde has spades of cheap housing stock.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,205
Location
Bolton
The rolling stock may be working in marginal time, at minimal cost for the extra miles and energy used, but the cost of providing the drivers, train managers and catering crews for those extra Blackpool services is very significant for frankly very little used trains. Especially when they mostly couldn't serve Crewe and none could serve Poulton-le-Fylde or Kirkham & Wesham. The new timetable does show more calls at Crewe thank goodness if they return, but it's very questionable value for money. It was good going for Rugby I admit, and it was beneficial that some of the services provided London connections into and out of those between the West Midlands and the Central belt, but that was it really.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
The rolling stock may be working in marginal time, at minimal cost for the extra miles and energy used, but the cost of providing the drivers, train managers and catering crews for those extra Blackpool services is very significant for frankly very little used trains. Especially when they mostly couldn't serve Crewe and none could serve Poulton-le-Fylde or Kirkham & Wesham. The new timetable does show more calls at Crewe thank goodness if they return, but it's very questionable value for money. It was good going for Rugby I admit, and it was beneficial that some of the services provided London connections into and out of those between the West Midlands and the Central belt, but that was it really.

Virgin obviously did the sums on the Blackpool service and it must have at least fit into the "doesn't lose money" box.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,205
Location
Bolton
Virgin obviously did the sums on the Blackpool service and it must have at least fit into the "doesn't lose money" box.
Not necessarily if their inclusion was by means of arrangement with the Department. In any case, if that were true in 2018-19 it's probably not true in 2021-22.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
Not necessarily if their inclusion was by means of arrangement with the Department. In any case, if that were true in 2018-19 it's probably not true in 2021-22.

It was only the early/late Voyager introduced in 2014 that I recall being part of a direct award. The "middle of day" services I'd understood to be run "commerically" by Virgin post Blackpool electrification.

It is interesting however that the Blackpool extensions have been maintained during the EMRA periods (albeit as Birmingham extensions), so the net marginal cost of running them must be negligible (otherwise they'd be the first things for the chop)
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,205
Location
Bolton
It was only the early/late Voyager introduced in 2014 that I recall being part of a direct award. The "middle of day" services I'd understood to be run "commerically" by Virgin post Blackpool electrification.

It is interesting however that the Blackpool extensions have been maintained during the EMRA periods (albeit as Birmingham extensions), so the net marginal cost of running them must be negligible (otherwise they'd be the first things for the chop)
Indeed but there's no way they'd stick with them long term like that though. They'd either pull them completely and go down to two hourly between the West Midlands and Central Belt, or restore them to serving Scotland. It's a useful interim solution of course.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
35,400
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
There is a very good reason for that :)

(No, not paucity of employment...FWIW the nice bits of South Fylde aren't cheap)
Are you looking back to the time of the mill towns and their "Wakes Weeks" which lasted over a number of calendar months every year. Blackpool had plenty of bed and breakfast accommodation to meet that annual demand and don't forget Blackpool Central station with its 14 platforms was the reason why the fast express Marton line was built just after the start of the 20th century from Kirkham and Wesham to Blackpool South and Blackpool Central.
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,098
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Are you looking back to the time of the mill towns and their "Wakes Weeks" which lasted over a number of calendar months every year. Blackpool had plenty of bed and breakfast accommodation to meet that annual demand and don't forget Blackpool Central station with its 14 platforms.

No, I'm suggesting Blackpool isn't that nice a place and so is hardly going to be the top of the list for places to commute to Manchester from.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,205
Location
Bolton
I think Bletchleyite was making the point that the lower average price level of housing in the area generally reflects the quality of the accommodation in greater proportion than it reflects the land value. In other words, housing the the cheaper areas of Blackpool may actually be worse value for money than in, for example, a slightly more expensive part of Wigan. To put it another way, some properties would need so much money spending on renovations that it would be cheaper to buy a house that was already in a better condition somewhere else.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,098
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I think Bletchleyite was making the point that the lower average price level of housing in the area generally reflects the quality of the accommodation in greater proportion than it reflects the land value. In other words, housing the the cheaper areas of Blackpool may actually be worse value for money than in, for example, a slightly more expensive part of Wigan.

Yes, that was sort of the point I was making.
 

roversfan2001

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2016
Messages
1,666
Location
Lancashire
...the RES* platforms could be brought back into use were more capacity needed.

* Rail Express Systems, the former parcel platforms.
Well, every day's a school day - I've always thought RES just meant reserve!

Back on topic, I'm not entirely sure why the OP thinks Blackpool North is over served. 2tph to the biggest major city nearby, 1tph to the second biggest. The York services provide a useful cross-country route. The occasional London services aren't harming anyone. If the OP's service cuts were to happen, where would the displaced stock be used?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
35,400
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
Back on topic, I'm not entirely sure why the OP thinks Blackpool North is over served. 2tph to the biggest major city nearby, 1tph to the second biggest. The York services provide a useful cross-country route. The occasional London services aren't harming anyone. If the OP's service cuts were to happen, where would the displaced stock be used?
Noting your website avatar, Blackburn is quite a main station on the York to Blackpool North line and that service offers Blackburn passengers a direct service to Blackpool North station, which is far better placed for central Blackpool than Blackpool South.
 

roversfan2001

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2016
Messages
1,666
Location
Lancashire
Noting your website avatar, Blackburn is quite a main station on the York to Blackpool North line and that service offers Blackburn passengers a direct service to Blackpool North station, which is far better placed for central Blackpool than Blackpool South.
The stoppers on the East Lancashire Line don’t even go as far as Blackpool South these days either so the York trains are the only direct trains to Blackpool from Blackburn and Burnley. I doubt many people stay on the train from start to finish, but the train serves multiple shorter flows such as Blackpool<>Blackburn. In fact it’s the only service between Burnley Manchester Road and Hebden Bridge.
 

Cantab26

Established Member
Joined
9 Jun 2016
Messages
1,948
Preston (county town of Lancashire)

Isn't Lancaster the county town of Lancs, not Preston?

It was at one time, but I believe the county council headquarters are now based in Preston.

Lancaster is still the county town of Lancashire, Preston is the administrative centre. I know, I worked at County Hall for many years, some of which were in an office with a good view of the railway.
Lancashire is an odd one in that the division between county town - Lancaster - and seat of county administration - Preston - was fixed by legislation.

Let me see if I can find the reference.

EDIT: the Lancaster Quarter Sessions Act, 1798 (c. lviii)
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
8,144
Location
Leeds
It was at one time, but I believe the county council headquarters are now based in Preston.
Preston has been the site of the county offices since the modern local government system was set up in 1888.
Edit: tspaul has found something much older!
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,626
Location
Yorkshire
The stoppers on the East Lancashire Line don’t even go as far as Blackpool South these days either so the York trains are the only direct trains to Blackpool from Blackburn and Burnley. I doubt many people stay on the train from start to finish, but the train serves multiple shorter flows such as Blackpool<>Blackburn. In fact it’s the only service between Burnley Manchester Road and Hebden Bridge.
You’d be surprised how many people use the YRK - BPN service end to end. It is a very useful cross country service and meets the needs of long distance point to point, long distance connecting (ie Lancaster Uni students from Yorkshire changing at Preston) and local journeys throughout. Thankfully most services I’ve worked are 3 or even 4 cars so are able to meet demand.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,078
Location
Redcar
I disagree, a light rail system may look like a tramway but actually operates at a higher frequency.

Indeed the newer light rail trams run at a frequency of 10 to 15 mins while the older trams run at a frequency of 20 to 30 mins, that in itself is evidence that it is a light rail system with a higher frequency of services.

Erm, best tell TfL that they need to rebrand the Croydon Tram network is that's the case as they've clearly made a grievous error... :lol:
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,098
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I disagree, a light rail system may look like a tramway but actually operates at a higher frequency.

Frequency has nothing to do with it. It's about the rails and the vehicles.

A tram is a subclass of a light rail vehicle (which means it's both). Another subclass is a light rail metro vehicle like those used on the DLR or Tyne and Wear Metro. A third subclass might be a light-rail rural line as you get in some countries but not the UK. (A fourth is the legal framework behind preserved lines, but that's a bit tangential).
 

Philip

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2007
Messages
3,734
Location
Manchester
It can be the same in winter. I’ve been full and standing to Blackpool in December and February.




Comparison with Southport is valid (resort town in NW England) but to say ‘but you can’t count Merseyrail’ is.... odd.
Merseyrail is a self contained service, where the use of the stock and diagrams don't potentially affect other routes; everything is in place as it should be, with no bearing on other TOCs.

Perhaps the Manchester service should continue as it is from Blackpool, but I think there is a good case for running the York service from Preston; West Yorkshire to Blackpool isn't a well used through route and there is the option of changing at Manchester which isn't much slower route. The couple of 195s this would free up could be very useful for strengthening a couple of the Barrow/Windermere diagrams, some of which may struggle to cope running as 3-coach trains when passenger numbers pick up more.
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,626
Location
Yorkshire
Merseyrail is a self contained service, where the use of the stock and diagrams don't potentially affect other routes; everything is in place as it should be, with no bearing on other TOCs.

Perhaps the Manchester service should continue as it is from Blackpool, but I think there is a good case for running the York service from Preston; West Yorkshire to Blackpool isn't a well used through route and there is the option of changing at Manchester which isn't much slower route. The couple of 195s this would free up could be very useful for strengthening a couple of the Barrow/Windermere diagrams, some of which may struggle to cope running as 3-coach trains when passenger numbers pick up more.
You obviously don’t work on this route as I do all year around. It is a very well used route from Yorkshire/East Lancs right through to both Poulton and Blackpool and vv. Ok not every service but that goes for almost any service anyway. It would save 1 unit by turning back at Preston not a couple.

Yet another post trying to pare back the destinations offered from Leeds for seemingly no real reason. I’m starting to get paranoid.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,682
Merseyrail is a self contained service, where the use of the stock and diagrams don't potentially affect other routes; everything is in place as it should be, with no bearing on other TOCs.

So what? Merseyrail run trains, to Southport, from a nearby big conurbation.

Was that in the DMU days? 2 x 6 x 24m per hour is really quite a lot of capacity. Plenty of London commuter routes run like that.

Yes, but also since.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top