Is Birmingham OK?

[Bald Rick]

but Manchester is maybe a bigger city in terms of culture/media/sport?

What? Have you not heard of Doreen Tipton?

 

[birchesgreen]

I've always found the concept of a second city (and the rivalry between Brum and Manchester over it) quite odd. Should be Liverpool anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've always found the concept of a second city (and the rivalry between Brum and Manchester over it) quite odd. Should be Liverpool anyway.

Strictly speaking, it should be Chichester.

 

[edwin_m]

Depending on how you count them, Manchester has about nine heavy rail radial lines with a suburban service, plus six radial Metrolink routes. Birmingham has five and one, so its public transport is proportionately much more reliant on buses. I was reading something not long ago suggesting that Birmingham underperforms economically because that makes its commuting radius and therefore labour pool much smaller than other cities of comparable size.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I think Brum has improved over the years. The locals are relatively friendly too.

 

[DB]

Depending on how you count them, Manchester has about nine heavy rail radial lines with a suburban service, plus six radial Metrolink routes. Birmingham has five and one, so its public transport is proportionately much more reliant on buses. I was reading something not long ago suggesting that Birmingham underperforms economically because that makes its commuting radius and therefore labour pool much smaller than other cities of comparable size.

Leeds is massively worse in terms of reliance on buses.

 

[telstarbox]

Depending on how you count them, Manchester has about nine heavy rail radial lines with a suburban service, plus six radial Metrolink routes. Birmingham has five and one, so its public transport is proportionately much more reliant on buses. I was reading something not long ago suggesting that Birmingham underperforms economically because that makes its commuting radius and therefore labour pool much smaller than other cities of comparable size.

I remember that - this should be the article

“Birmingham isn’t a big city at peak times”: How poor public transport explains the UK’s productivity puzzle - CityMonitor

For a year now, the Open Data Institute Leeds has been tracking most of the buses and trams in the…

citymonitor.ai

 

[Djgr]

I remember that - this should be the article

“Birmingham isn’t a big city at peak times”: How poor public transport explains the UK’s productivity puzzle - CityMonitor

For a year now, the Open Data Institute Leeds has been tracking most of the buses and trams in the…

citymonitor.ai

So in answer to the question "Is Birmingham okay?" I think I would say "Yes...but really could and should do much better in virtually every area"

 

[edwin_m]

I remember that - this should be the article

“Birmingham isn’t a big city at peak times”: How poor public transport explains the UK’s productivity puzzle - CityMonitor

For a year now, the Open Data Institute Leeds has been tracking most of the buses and trams in the…

citymonitor.ai

Yes, that's the one. I think it was on CityMetric at the time but CityMonitor seems to have replaced it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2020 ==

Leeds is massively worse in terms of reliance on buses.

Leeds has seven or eight radial rail routes with suburban-ish services, depending how far out you count them. So better than Birmingham's five plus one tram route.

 

[DB]

Yes, that's the one. I think it was on CityMetric at the time but CityMonitor seems to have replaced it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2020 ==


Leeds has seven or eight radial rail routes with suburban-ish services, depending how far out you count them. So better than Birmingham's five plus one tram route.

But it only has one station in the centre, which is very limiting - and those routes don't actually have that many suburban stations on them.

 

[edwin_m]

But it only has one station in the centre, which is very limiting - and those routes don't actually have that many suburban stations on them.

Birmingham and Manchester only have a handful of stations in the inner suburbs - heavy rail isn't particularly useful for that sort of journey. For those distances buses are probably more convenient even if they are slow, as the extra frequency makes up for it. The point of the quoted article was the limited size of the labour market in Birmingham because most suburbs further out have poor access and rely on buses. Leeds may or may not be better but the post I was responding to was comparing Birmingham with Manchester.

 

[philosopher]

I am originally from Birmingham and still visit several times a year so here are my observations. To me the issue with Birmingham is that it never really has found a good role for itself after the loss of much of its manufacturing industry in the seventies and eighties.

In the nineties, it tried to focus on being the UK centre for conferences and exhibitions and for a while it did quite in this area (e.g the G7 in 1998). However in the 2000’s this appeared to falter. For example it lost the British Motor Show to London in 2004. Between 2000 and 2010, it focused heavily on retail, building the new Bull Ring and other shopping centres. While the Bull Ring did well, there never really seems to have been enough demand for all these new shops, so it meant the older shopping streets such as Corporation Street have become more rundown. Perhaps poor transport is the issue here. The Mailbox, an upmarket part shopping centre built 20 years ago never really got of the ground. The shift to online retail in the past ten years has further undermined this.

In the last ten years it has tried to market itself as an overspill office location for London based companies by building large numbers of new offices like the new Paradise Circus office district. It has had some initial success with this, with HSBC relocating a large proportion of its workforce to Birmingham in a shiny new office a few years ago. However given the likely much lower demand for offices due to much greater working from home post Covid-19 I can’t see this strategy working too well now either.

Other cities seemed to have had a lot more success in creating a new role for themselves. Eg Manchester has built a fairly successful culture and media industry, while Leeds built up its finance industry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2020 ==

Birmingham and Manchester only have a handful of stations in the inner suburbs - heavy rail isn't particularly useful for that sort of journey. For those distances buses are probably more convenient even if they are slow, as the extra frequency makes up for it. The point of the quoted article was the limited size of the labour market in Birmingham because most suburbs further out have poor access and rely on buses. Leeds may or may not be better but the post I was responding to was comparing Birmingham with Manchester.

Trams would help from the inner suburbs. Birmingham has been quite lame in building a tram network which can’t have helped. The pontificated putting the tram extension underground through a large part of the centre about 15 years ago, something which the central government realistically was never going to fund. The end result is that they wasted 10 years or so in building the extension.

 

[Bald Rick]

Depending on how you count them, Manchester has about nine heavy rail radial lines with a suburban service, plus six radial Metrolink routes. Birmingham has five and one, so its public transport is proportionately much more reliant on buses. I was reading something not long ago suggesting that Birmingham underperforms economically because that makes its commuting radius and therefore labour pool much smaller than other cities of comparable size.

I know you said ‘it depends how you count them’, but I’d argue that Birmingham has 7:

Rugeley / Walsall
Lichfield
Coventry
Leamington / Solihull
Stratford / Shirley
Redditch / Bromsgrove
Wolverhampton (arguably to Shrewsbury)

And that doesn’t count Water Orion / Coleshill, which in my opinion isn’t much of a service.

Nevertheless there are some gaps, notably
Moseley / Kings Heath (being resolved)
heading out to the Black Country - Dudley, Brierley Hill etc (the new tram might help here, a little)
due north to Kingstanding / Aldridge / Brownhills / Burntwood.

 

[Class172]

I know you said ‘it depends how you count them’, but I’d argue that Birmingham has 7:

Rugeley / Walsall
Lichfield
Coventry
Leamington / Solihull
Stratford / Shirley
Redditch / Bromsgrove
Wolverhampton (arguably to Shrewsbury)

And that doesn’t count Water Orion / Coleshill, which in my opinion isn’t much of a service.

Nevertheless there are some gaps, notably
Moseley / Kings Heath (being resolved)
heading out to the Black Country - Dudley, Brierley Hill etc (the new tram might help here, a little)
due north to Kingstanding / Aldridge / Brownhills / Burntwood.

I’d also add Stourbridge/Kidderminster to the list above.

 

[ChrisC]

Over the last 5 years, since retiring, I have visited many UK cities for short breaks, usually staying in city centre hotels. I actually quite enjoyed staying in Birmingham a couple of years ago and visited some interesting locations. Just to give a picture of the type of cities I have visited in addition to Birmingham these have been London, Manchester, Liverpool, Plymouth, Bristol, York, Glasgow, Chester, Exeter, Leeds and Bradford.

The thing I really noticed more than anything else in Birmingham were the large number of beggars and homeless on the streets of the city centre. Almost every time I went out, at all times of the day, I was approached by numerous people asking me for money. They were usually polite and not a threat or abusive but they were everywhere in large numbers. I have not encountered this on such a scale in any of the other cities that I have visited and that includes London.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’d also add Stourbridge/Kidderminster to the list above.

Oops, yes. So that’s 8, and a tram route. With another heavy rail route on the way, and another 1 and a half tram routes too.

The thing I really noticed more than anything else in Birmingham were the large number of beggars and homeless on the streets of the city centre

Yes, I noticed that too, and it’s a relatively recent thing.

 

[ChrisC]

Yes, I noticed that too, and it’s a relatively recent thing.

My last stay was October 2017 and it was noticeably worse than during my previous stay in Birmingham in 2015.

 

[edwin_m]

Oops, yes. So that’s 8, and a tram route. With another heavy rail route on the way, and another 1 and a half tram routes too.



Yes, I noticed that too, and it’s a relatively recent thing.

OK, guess I missed a couple, but still well behind Manchester if you count the trams too. More trams should help in the future, but the current situation is created by what's there now or was in the recent past. Without a good radial network the benefits of HS2 may end up being very localised around the city centre, plus development round the Interchange that may just draw activity away from older areas.

 

[KashmireHawker]

I wondered when this would come up The way I see it, Birmingham and Manchester are both the natural 'capitals' of their conurbations, but Manchester has a sphere of influence beyond its urban area (towards Liverpool, Stoke, the Lancashire towns) in a different way to Birmingham. They both have an airport, motorways, major railway stations etc but Manchester is maybe a bigger city in terms of culture/media/sport?

On that bottom point, that is where something like the 2022 Commonwealth Games comes into play and being part of the OC’s Cultural Team, I can say that planning for a very spectacular Cultural Programme - which will probably see hundreds of Cultural Organisations from across the West Midlands be involved, is very much in action!

 

[Geezertronic]

Yes, I noticed that too, and it’s a relatively recent thing.

I wouldn't say it is a relatively recent thing, you used to get the odd one or two trying to wash your windscreen with a squirty bottle full of yellow water (yes it did stink...) a few years back but they seem to have disappeared in favour of the ones that stand by either islands or traffic lights asking for money. I travel down the A45 towards the A4540 and they are regularly there from The Swan onwards into Town

You also get ones (that I have personally seen) that stand outside McDonalds (particularly by the A45/A4540 island) asking people who go in for a hot drink & food. Like a previous poster suggested, they are polite

 

[Class172]

I wouldn't say it is a relatively recent thing, you used to get the odd one or two trying to wash your windscreen with a squirty bottle full of yellow water (yes it did stink...) a few years back but they seem to have disappeared in favour of the ones that stand by either islands or traffic lights asking for money. I travel down the A45 towards the A4540 and they are regularly there from The Swan onwards into Town

You also get ones (that I have personally seen) that stand outside McDonalds (particularly by the A45/A4540 island) asking people who go in for a hot drink & food. Like a previous poster suggested, they are polite

You also tend to find them around Belgrave Interchange (A38/A4540), often waiting for the queue to form by the traffic lights - as you say however they're always polite I've found.

 

[Bald Rick]

I meant those that are on the streets in central Birmingham, around the main shopping and business area. It certainly wasn’t like that in the 90s and 00s.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

More beggars, how can that be? Are there many in London, Manchester? I thought society was getting richer and richer

 

[najaB]

More the, how can that be? Are there many in London, Manchester? I thought society was getting richer and richer

A man is out hiking and comes across a wide river blocking his path. He turns to one of the nearby fishermen and asked "How deep is this river. I need to cross it, but I can't swim?"

The fisherman replies "It's 1 foot deep on average."

The man thinks "1 foot deep, I'll be able to walk across no bother." With that, he strides confidently into the river, drops off the ledge and drowns in the 10 foot deep water.

The moral of the story: don't trust statisticians.

 

[route101]

I wouldn't say it is a relatively recent thing, you used to get the odd one or two trying to wash your windscreen with a squirty bottle full of yellow water (yes it did stink...) a few years back but they seem to have disappeared in favour of the ones that stand by either islands or traffic lights asking for money. I travel down the A45 towards the A4540 and they are regularly there from The Swan onwards into Town

You also get ones (that I have personally seen) that stand outside McDonalds (particularly by the A45/A4540 island) asking people who go in for a hot drink & food. Like a previous poster suggested, they are polite

What is the yellow water i wonder? Seen them often abroad but not here.

I did notice the beggars in Birmingham. Difference between Glasgow(where i stay/Edinburgh) and English cities is the density, more 2 storey lower density terraces than the 4 storey tenements of Scotland surrounding the city.

 

[ABB125]

I can't remember a time when I haven't seen at least one beggar somewhere along the route between New Street and Moor Street stations, although I only became old enough to properly notice thing like this maybe 5 years ago.

 

[david1212]

I'm not a Brummie as such but live not too far away. Also for 10 or so years something like 1952 - 1962 my father had a newsagents on the A34 Stratford Road in Sparkhill which is where he met my mother as she was working in the area although from the south.

Back from the early 1980's when I was at polytechnic I regularly went to Brum either alone, with a friend or the brother of the lady I was in digs with. Then there was the indoor Bull Ring adjacent to the bus station, the stalls outside then across Edgbaston Street the Rag market. Plenty of time spent too looking in camera and hi-fi shops thinking of what to buy once earning. A full set too of BHS, C&A, Littlewoods and M&S plus two Woolworths. I can't recall when the Co-op closed.

Come the late 1980's & early 1990's visits were less frequent and often to purchase something camera or hi-fi related.

Moving on as gradually tech was cheaper on line, shops closed and the market shrank plus eBay evolved for items once sourced there a specific visit rather than just passing through became rare. There is nothing in the new Bull Ring to attract me, rather I avoid it as once inside I become totally disorientated. More recently Grand Central has no appeal either. Now an hour is enough for a quick walk around. More than two and I'd just be killing time.

The rebuilding of New Street has pro's & con's. The direct entrance off Stephenson Street is a gain. The separate entrances for the surburban platforms at least as an occasional traveller are a con. If changing first get through the barriers to the main concourse. Next find the platform from the main screen then finally the correct entry and barrier line. Somehow I always seem to miss the shortest route. While the old single access / bridge could become crowded at least every platform could be directly accessed.

With the school sixth form I did go to the science museum. If only I knew it was closing I would have gone again. Thinktank has no appeal not to mention the entry charge.

 

[Geezertronic]

What is the yellow water i wonder? Seen them often abroad but not here.

I'd suggest it is the same liquid used to make yellow snow, certainly smells like it

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd suggest it is the same liquid used to make yellow snow, certainly smells like it

Lager?

Before or after processing?

 

[al78]

A man is out hiking and comes across a wide river blocking his path. He turns to one of the nearby fishermen and asked "How deep is this river. I need to cross it, but I can't swim?"

The fisherman replies "It's 1 foot deep on average."

The man thinks "1 foot deep, I'll be able to walk across no bother." With that, he strides confidently into the river, drops off the ledge and drowns in the 10 foot deep water.

The moral of the story: don't trust statisticians.

1 foot deep on average /= 1 foot deep all the way across, the statistician could easly have been correct.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2020 ==

More beggars, how can that be? Are there many in London, Manchester? I thought society was getting richer and richer

So is inequality.