Is any TOC more hated by its customers than Southeastern?

[HH]

Hang on. You cannot cast negative (and potentially libellous) aspersions and make sweeping generalisations such as "SouthEastern operate unsafely" by only giving examples of one or two isolated incidents.

Did I say "SouthEastern operate unsafely"? Please point to the post.

 

[AlterEgo]

I did a survey of their stations at this time and found that standards varied wildly. I came to the conclusion that there was no quality culture at all (not in safety, customer service or anything else). Sometimes you just had a very good local manager and got lucky.

You say there is no quality culture at all in safety. Please back this up with more than an isolated example. You are effectively saying SouthEastern do not give a toss about safety. That is absolutely the most serious allegation that can be levied against a TOC.

I assume you've done the "right" thing and let the ORR know of SouthEastern's negligence. If you can provide some actual evidence of their lack of regard for safety across the board, then I, too, will share your concern.

 

[HH]

You say there is no quality culture at all in safety. Please back this up with more than an isolated example. You are effectively saying SouthEastern do not give a toss about safety. That is absolutely the most serious allegation that can be levied against a TOC.

I assume you've done the "right" thing and let the ORR know of SouthEastern's negligence. If you can provide some actual evidence of their lack of regard for safety across the board, then I, too, will share your concern.

An amazing jump or three from what I wrote to what you then say I wrote. This sort of argument is called a straw man. I stand by what I wrote. I am not going to argue about what you want to pretend I wrote.

 

[Schnellzug]

Why is one small instance of someone up a Ladder changing a lightbulb, even if doing in in the Wet might not be the msot sensible idea, evidence in and of itself of a lack of Safety culture? I bet people would complain that they didn't look after the stations properly.

 

[AlterEgo]

An amazing jump or three from what I wrote to what you then say I wrote. This sort of argument is called a straw man. I stand by what I wrote. I am not going to argue about what you want to pretend I wrote.

If you wish.

However, why not supply us with some evidence backing up your assertion that SouthEastern have no quality culture in regard to safety? (Your words, not mine!) I stand by my comment that it is fair to interpret your observations of "no quality culture in regards to safety" as an accusation that SouthEastern operate unsafely.

Have you contacted the ORR?

I'd be interested to know what they think.

You make a very serious allegation. Please back it up for the benefit of the discussion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I came to the conclusion that there was no quality culture at all (not in safety, customer service or anything else). Sometimes you just had a very good local manager and got lucky.

.

Here is what you wrote.

That's a serious allegation to make about a TOC, and it can't be allowed to pass unchallenged. I am more than happy to agree with your assertion if you're able to provide us with some actual evidence that isn't a man changing a lightbulb in the wet on one occasion.

 

[HH]

Go back and read once again what I wrote. If you still can't see why you're making an arse of yourself, well I can't help you.

 

[OxtedL]

You are kidding, right?

HH, you have clearly made an assertion that Southeastern are in some way unsafe, or at the very least lacking in safety. However much AlterEgo may or may not be over-reacting, you still said it.

This is a bit pointless now though, given as you have managed to loop round at least 6 times...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Go back and read once again what I wrote. If you still can't see why you're making an arse of yourself, well I can't help you.

Given that you are clearly avoiding answering the questions put to you, I think we can safely assume that your allegations were unfounded and nothing more than rhetoric. We've come to a conclusion finally!


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Bungle73]

A report has found that a SE train overshot a station by about two and half miles because its sandhoppers were empty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-15772882

Apparently it was alerted that they were low but nothing was done about it.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

A report has found that a SE train overshot a station by about two and half miles because its sandhoppers were empty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-15772882

Apparently it was alerted that they were low but nothing was done about it.

The overrun would have happened, sand or no sand. Incidents do happen when you're running hundreds of miles of track and thousands of trains. SE have been proactive and have already implemented changes before the RAIB report was published - does that sound like an unsafe operator?

 

[Bungle73]

The overrun would have happened, sand or no sand.

Yeah, but it would have helped wouldn't it? When it's alerted several times that essential safety equipment needs attention and nothing is done about it something isn't right somewhere.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Yeah, but it would have helped wouldn't it? When it's alerted several times that essential safety equipment needs attention and nothing is done about it something isn't right somewhere.

Yes it would have helped. It was clearly a cock up - but nothing really dangerous happened. Signals were green, AHB worked. SE realised it should't have happened, and have implemented changes. Sounds to me like they have dealt with the incident quite well.

 

[AlterEgo]

Go back and read once again what I wrote.

I have, and I quoted it to you.

Given that you don't want to answer the questions or back up your point, I think we can all draw our own conclusions about who looks sillier, without resorting to childish insults.

 

[OxtedL]

This is the RAIB report on Stonegate (sounds like a scandal ) http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/111117_R182011_Stonegate.pdf
They seem to reckon that sand would have had a big effect.

I'm wondering whether the recommendations made at the end ("London & South Eastern Railway Ltd should introduce management systems to prevent trains that require safety related maintenance work from re-entering service until that work has been completed") may be one contributory factor to the current proliferation of short formations.

 

[Schnellzug]

Yes it would have helped. It was clearly a cock up - but nothing really dangerous happened. Signals were green, AHB worked. SE realised it should't have happened, and have implemented changes. Sounds to me like they have dealt with the incident quite well.

but er... if the signals hadn't been green....? Seriously, it wasn't able to stop, and that isn't anything to particularly worry about too much? It sounds very much like something to worry about to me. TPWS wouldn't have made any difference if it was sliding due to the brakes being ineffective, would it?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

but er... if the signals hadn't been green....? Seriously, it wasn't able to stop, and that isn't anything to particularly worry about too much? It sounds very much like something to worry about to me. TPWS wouldn't have made any difference if it was sliding due to the brakes being ineffective, would it?

The signals were green in this case. The RAIB stated that whilst sand would have increased braking performance by 6% G, it would not have prevented the overrun. Whilst I agree this should not have happened, it did, and SouthEastern have taken proactive steps to ensure that the same thing does not happen again.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[OxtedL]

This is a 2 mile overrun, though. Emergency brakes are designed to act at 12%g according to the report, but the actual calculated braking performance was 1.7%g. 6%g is therefore a massive difference, and the incident seems of major concern. Low adhesion happens everywhere, not just on quiet lines with green signals (see what very nearly happened near Lewes in the not too distant past), so common sense suggests that a significant review was required. Whether or not an overrun occurred, the key issue is minimising it, to minimise the risk of a serious accident.

However, I agree, SouthEastern will definitely have taken the necessary steps to sort this out. Not doing so could only be described as ultimate stupidity.

 

[HH]

I have, and I quoted it to you.

Given that you don't want to answer the questions or back up your point, I think we can all draw our own conclusions about who looks sillier, without resorting to childish insults.

You didn't quote. You took part of what I said, and then put your own spin on it. As there are several of you who can't read I'll help you out by adding the bits you missed out and highlighting some things that show why you're talking rubbish. Not that I expect any of you to admit it.

I saw things with my own eyes, such as someone changing a lamp bulb up a ladder on platform on his own, in the wet, while trains were running a few feet away. Now if you think that's safe just say so. But you'll have to forgive me if I didn't whip my camera out and take a flash photo just so I could prove it to you.

This was under SET, but my point was that most of the same people are still running that railway.

Geddit? Also to those who are harping on about ORR, you don't even know why this is unsafe.

I remember a story from back in SET days. The bidder's representatives were being shown around a depot by the depot manager, when the walk took them under a bridge. One of the bidders commented that this looked dangerous, which was poo-pooed by the DM. As they walked under the bridge a group of youths stared dropping bricks on them. Good job they were wearing hard hats.

I did a survey of their stations at this time and found that standards varied wildly. I came to the conclusion that there was no quality culture at all (not in safety, customer service or anything else). Sometimes you just had a very good local manager and got lucky.

So that's two instances. I could lookup my notes and write down others, but why bother? You've consistently accused me of talking about Southeastern when I clearly wrote SET. You've said I had come up with one example when I'd written two. As you are so cavalier with the truth what's the point of me taking you seriously?

 

[OxtedL]

You also said this, and some other things about franchising that didn't make real sense, but never mind that.

The fact is that the management at SE will remain largely unchanged and that's been bad for a very long while.

I accept that you can argue this was in a different context to safety, but if you were really talking solely about SET then it would have been much better to say so as soon as someone took issue, because this is a forum, and people will take issue where there is issue to be had. SET is still sometimes used as an abbreviation for SE, so is generally ambiguous.

Also, what the hell is this about, in the context of your last post?

No, let's have some facts from you. Do you have verifiable evidence that southeastern now has a safety culture?

 

[HH]

It's simple. I said that many of the same people are still in charge. I know that they didn't have a quality culture, so it seems reasonable to ask if they have one now.

However I didn't write that Southeastern had poor safety, which is what I've been accused of numerous times.

 

[AlterEgo]

I know that they didn't have a quality culture, so it seems reasonable to ask if they have one now.

That's an opinion, not a fact.

I don't disagree with you, but neither do I agree, as there isn't enough evidence in the thread to either support or deny what you said. All I've asked for, for the benefit of the discussion, was for you to elaborate further, as for someone to have the opinion that there was no quality culture with regards to safety, to my mind, requires someone to have observed SET closely, and to have a list of failings which they could provide. I'd honestly be interested to hear them, but it seems as though we won't be able to, which is a shame.

The RAIB report is very interesting as it does highlight specific deficiencies on the part of SouthEastern. It is concerning that the sandboxes were left empty - but the report itself does the talking.

 

[HH]

That's an opinion, not a fact.

I don't disagree with you, but neither do I agree, as there isn't enough evidence in the thread to either support or deny what you said. All I've asked for, for the benefit of the discussion, was for you to elaborate further, as for someone to have the opinion that there was no quality culture with regards to safety, to my mind, requires someone to have observed SET closely, and to have a list of failings which they could provide. I'd honestly be interested to hear them, but it seems as though we won't be able to, which is a shame.

The RAIB report is very interesting as it does highlight specific deficiencies on the part of SouthEastern. It is concerning that the sandboxes were left empty - but the report itself does the talking.

OK it's an opinion. It is based on observations though. Here are some of the things I noted:

* Lewisham. Painting was being done on the platform. Ladder went up to yellow line. No lookout, no-one steadying ladder, no warning signs. At the same time 5 Platform staff were stood around drinking tea (all on the same platform), chatting, and using the public toilet.

* New Cross. A very nasty, dim and dirty subway leads from the incoming platform over to where the exit is. Lots of graffiti around, including on the Coffee Cart. Station was filthy and even the rubbish that had been gathered was left in sacks on the platform (photo). More unsafe working, this time on the DOO cameras, with one guy having his lunch up the ladder.

* Waterloo East. Information point, unstaffed and full of rubbish. Saw only 1 platform staff and he was hiding in a doorway.

* Sevenoaks. Good station. Painting in progress at this station, adequately signed and with hazard tape marking off area. 4 youths pushed through gates to get on train while I was there. These were dealt with firmly, but good-naturedly by two staff.

* Tonbridge. Busy station, but gates open and youths sitting on overbridge. Upstairs clock broken.

* Tunbridge Wells. There is a manual ticket check “box” by the exit from the platform, but the checker didn’t actually ask to see any tickets.

* Bromley South. Member of platform staff forgot his dispatch bats. Lackadaisical feel to station as a whole.

* General. Yellow lining on Platforms is patchy. Some is OK, but some is barely visible. White lining at the platform edge has been ignored completely. Information systems at the larger stations are excellent regarding train times, both visually and aurally. Smaller stations miss out on announcements. Reasons for delay were not very forthcoming (seems like nothing's changed there then). Saw several examples of maintenance issues that had clearly been left unattended for some time; e.g. subway at Ashford has uneven floor, signs and tape had clearly seen much use; at Bromley South several of the glass panels in the overbridge were fractured, and warning notices had almost faded away (indicating the problem was an old one).

This is why I say there was no quality culture. The odd station was well run, but there was nothing endemic.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

* Lewisham. Painting was being done on the platform. Ladder went up to yellow line. No lookout, no-one steadying ladder, no warning signs.

They were probably contractors and not employed by SET.

At the same time 5 Platform staff were stood around drinking tea (all on the same platform), chatting, and using the public toilet.

Staff using the public toilets? How awful!

More unsafe working, this time on the DOO cameras, with one guy having his lunch up the ladder.

Again, probably contractors

* Waterloo East. Information point, unstaffed and full of rubbish. Saw only 1 platform staff and he was hiding in a doorway.

So? There was still someone to ask to get information from.

* Sevenoaks. Good station. Painting in progress at this station, adequately signed and with hazard tape marking off area. 4 youths pushed through gates to get on train while I was there. These were dealt with firmly, but good-naturedly by two staff.

I'm glad you found that acceptable.

* Tonbridge. Busy station, but gates open and youths sitting on overbridge. Upstairs clock broken.

One clock broken out of how many? I would agree with this point though - in a business where time-keeping is essential, it's not brilliant to have a broken clock!

* Tunbridge Wells. There is a manual ticket check “box” by the exit from the platform, but the checker didn’t actually ask to see any tickets.

That's got nothing to do with quality or safety at all.

* Bromley South. Member of platform staff forgot his dispatch bats. Lackadaisical feel to station as a whole.

Doesn't matter. The rule book does not require dispatch bats.

This is why I say there was no quality culture. The odd station was well run, but there was nothing endemic.[/QUOTE]

 

[Schnellzug]

OK it's an opinion. It is based on observations though. Here are some of the things I noted:

* Lewisham. Painting was being done on the platform. Ladder went up to yellow line. No lookout, no-one steadying ladder, no warning signs. At the same time 5 Platform staff were stood around drinking tea (all on the same platform), chatting, and using the public toilet.

* New Cross. A very nasty, dim and dirty subway leads from the incoming platform over to where the exit is. Lots of graffiti around, including on the Coffee Cart. Station was filthy and even the rubbish that had been gathered was left in sacks on the platform (photo). More unsafe working, this time on the DOO cameras, with one guy having his lunch up the ladder.

* Waterloo East. Information point, unstaffed and full of rubbish. Saw only 1 platform staff and he was hiding in a doorway.

* Sevenoaks. Good station. Painting in progress at this station, adequately signed and with hazard tape marking off area. 4 youths pushed through gates to get on train while I was there. These were dealt with firmly, but good-naturedly by two staff.

* Tonbridge. Busy station, but gates open and youths sitting on overbridge. Upstairs clock broken.

* Tunbridge Wells. There is a manual ticket check “box” by the exit from the platform, but the checker didn’t actually ask to see any tickets.

* Bromley South. Member of platform staff forgot his dispatch bats. Lackadaisical feel to station as a whole.

* General. Yellow lining on Platforms is patchy. Some is OK, but some is barely visible. White lining at the platform edge has been ignored completely. Information systems at the larger stations are excellent regarding train times, both visually and aurally. Smaller stations miss out on announcements. Reasons for delay were not very forthcoming (seems like nothing's changed there then). Saw several examples of maintenance issues that had clearly been left unattended for some time; e.g. subway at Ashford has uneven floor, signs and tape had clearly seen much use; at Bromley South several of the glass panels in the overbridge were fractured, and warning notices had almost faded away (indicating the problem was an old one).

This is why I say there was no quality culture. The odd station was well run, but there was nothing endemic.

How many of them are anything to do with Safety? (I'm afraid I don't count "you can't go up a Ladder unless you have full protective clothing and safety helmet and a full possession on all running lines & the power turned off", as that's nothing to do with safe operation of the Railways).

 

[HH]

LOL. You can always turn a blind eye. You shouldn't be up a ladder on your own next to a working line. In fact you shouldn't be up an unsupported ladder on your own at all.

Oh, and TOCs have responsibility for the actions of contractors.

You guys don't appear to know much about safety.

 

[Southern]

Nice to see Southeastern have a sense of humour!

"Not a deady lion today, but there's a Pony hanging around near Gravesend station (not attempting to travel) - may cause some minor delays."
Taken from NRE_SEastern Twitter feed

 

[TrenHotel]

Nice to see Southeastern have a sense of humour!

"Not a deady lion today, but there's a Pony hanging around near Gravesend station (not attempting to travel) - may cause some minor delays."
Taken from NRE_SEastern Twitter feed

That's a National Rail Enquiries feed, not Southeastern's, sadly.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Nice to see Southeastern have a sense of humour!

"Not a deady lion today, but there's a Pony hanging around near Gravesend station (not attempting to travel) - may cause some minor delays."
Taken from NRE_SEastern Twitter feed

A very good friend of mine as Relief Station Manager in BR days had a donkey on the line at Charlton , - which he had to persue through the station (juice off of course) , in front of a goading line of commuters. Donkey tethered eventually - but not after some strong language.

 

[TrenHotel]

Southeastern's unique way with its customers continues...

- taping off Oyster readers when station is busy so passengers end up paying maximum fares
http://853blog.com/2011/11/22/did-southeastern-overcharge-your-oyster-at-blackheath-fireworks/

- not taping off Oyster readers when platforms should have been closed for engineering works
http://blackheathbugle.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/touching/

 

[MikeWh]

A serious signalling issue has affected trains in the Dartford area all day today. It has meant that no trains could run round between the Sidcup line and the Woolwich line in either direction. Throughout the day all of those services have been diverted away from the Sidcup line by running up or down the Bexleyheath line instead. Additionally all the London-bound Gillingham to Charing Cross services have been diverted to call at Sidcup instead of Abbey Wood, Woolwich Arsenal, Charlton and Blackheath.

That's how I understand the situation from examining several trains on Live Departures. This is how Southeastern decided to explain it on their website:

Owing to signalling problems between Slade Green and Crayford london-bound lines are affected.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be delayed by up to 5 mins or diverted via Sidcup at short notice. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.
Customer Advice:
Some London Cannon Street services will be diverted via Bexleyheath.
Docklands Light Railway are excepting ticket holders between Greenwich, Lewisham and Woolwich Arsenal.

Not only does that not really explain what is happening, it is also confusing (london-bound lines between Slade Green and Crayford?) and is it painful to be excepted when you are a ticket holder?