Is 195/331 running possible?

[PlatformEdgeVT]

I have wondered for quite a long time if it would be possible to run Class 195s that were coupled with Class 331s to essentially make a bi-mode train. I don't know the specifics, and would like to hear what you think.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, I don't believe it is. More's the pity.

 

[43096]

I have wondered for quite a long time if it would be possible to run Class 195s that were coupled with Class 331s to essentially make a bi-mode train. I don't know the specifics, and would like to hear what you think.

As I understand it, it is not possible as the two classes have - somewhat unbelievably - different control system voltages.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have wondered for quite a long time if it would be possible to run Class 195s that were coupled with Class 331s to essentially make a bi-mode train. I don't know the specifics, and would like to hear what you think.

It’s not usually possible, other than for rescue purposes. I’m sure the same question has been asked in the past about Electrostars and Turbostars, eg 377/171 and before that about Networkers and Turbos, eg 165/365/465, assuming mechanical coupling capability. The DMU versions won’t usually have enough installed power to haul a similar sized dead EMU at normal speed. The drivers desk controls won’t be able to translate power demands into the other flavour.

 

[skyhigh]

Only possible to run in exceptional circumstances. They cannot run together in passenger service.

 

[Class 466]

It’s not usually possible, other than for rescue purposes. I’m sure the same question has been asked in the past about Electrostars and Turbostars, eg 377/171 and before that about Networkers and Turbos, eg 165/365/465, assuming mechanical coupling capability. The DMU versions won’t usually have enough installed power to haul a similar sized dead EMU at normal speed. The drivers desk controls won’t be able to translate power demands into the other flavour.

165/166s have different couplers to their electric counterparts- whereas 171s/195s share the same as the electric version.

 

[MP393]

It has happened, a few months back, the wires came down at Kearsley on the Bolton line leaving a pair of 331s stranded. 195120 was sent to rescue it, however it only dragged it out of the damaged OHL area, where they both then returned on their own.

 

[PlatformEdgeVT]

Just to clarify, I mean in passenger service. Maybe as an alternative to the hybrid 195s Northern are seeking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to clarify, I mean in passenger service. Maybe as an alternative to the hybrid 195s Northern are seeking.

Sadly not. So no Southern style lashups.

Interestingly it can be done with 80x, and LNER often do on the low speed off-wires runs - if they don't need 125, you can run a 5-car EMU and a 5-car bi mode together (though technically the "EMUs" are actually just underpowered bi modes - they can move slowly under their own power on the one engine they have). And a Voyager can pull a Pendolino, though just for rescue, not to fully power it. There's a video of it somewhere.

 

[PlatformEdgeVT]

On electrified lines it could work, if both are running, but not as well on unelectrified routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On electrified lines it could work, if both are running, but not as well on unelectrified routes.

195/331 are not compatible at all. I seem to recall reading on here that the electricals in the couplers use different voltages, for instance. You can just haul one dead.

With 80x there's enough power in 4 engines (3 on the DEMU, 1 on the EMU) for a 10-car to do a reasonable speed on a non-electrified line. It has a better power to weight than a Sprinter with one engine out, for instance.

 

[swt_passenger]

On electrified lines it could work, if both are running, but not as well on unelectrified routes.

But as I already pointed out, the cab controls in the EMU version would not be able to directly control the engines in the DMU. They work that way in the various 800 series because the bi-mode versions are diesel-electric units, as far as the cab is concerned they function just like an EMU but with onboard generation.

 

[hexagon789]

195/331 are not compatible at all. I seem to recall reading on here that the electricals in the couplers use different voltages, for instance. You can just haul one dead.

With 80x there's enough power in 4 engines (3 on the DEMU, 1 on the EMU) for a 10-car to do a reasonable speed on a non-electrified line. It has a better power to weight than a Sprinter with one engine out, for instance.

Except when an 800 and 801 multi, the engine on the 801 is used for hotel supply only. So the 800 does all the traction power.

 

[175001]

As pointed out it can be done for rescue purposes only but it's a last resort. It needs a man in a CAF van to come out too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But as I already pointed out, the cab controls in the EMU version would not be able to directly control the engines in the DMU. They work that way in the various 800 series because the bi-mode versions are diesel-electric units, as far as the cab is concerned they function just like an EMU but with onboard generation.

I think this all comes down to "it's such a pity Northern didn't buy a fleet of bi-modes".

Those mechanical DMUs are going to be a source of irritation and regret for years, given that the North is progressively being wired (unlike say Wales, where 197s will likely not see many wires for their lifetime).

 

[Efini92]

195/331 are not compatible at all. I seem to recall reading on here that the electricals in the couplers use different voltages, for instance. You can just haul one dead.

With 80x there's enough power in 4 engines (3 on the DEMU, 1 on the EMU) for a 10-car to do a reasonable speed on a non-electrified line. It has a better power to weight than a Sprinter with one engine out, for instance.

I’m sure the couplers are both 110V. The TMS system wouldn’t be able to talk to each other. It’d be mechanical coupling only.

 

[PlatformEdgeVT]

I think this all comes down to "it's such a pity Northern didn't buy a fleet of bi-modes".

And their 769s are apparently 'less reliable than their older trains'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And their 769s are apparently 'less reliable than their older trains'.

They were always going to be a bit of a bodge. Their cousins, the 230s, are also not reliable.

 

[Sorcerer]

I find it quite interesting actually that 195s and 331s aren't compatible for the reasons of 800/801s being so. That said is this a likely reason why CAF's option of a DMU and EMU fleet was cheaper than using a series of bi-mode trains as well as other factors such as electrification?

 

[skyhigh]

I’m sure the couplers are both 110V. The TMS system wouldn’t be able to talk to each other. It’d be mechanical coupling only.

They're not unfortunately. Have a look in the cab and you will see the voltmeter tells all.

 

[Efini92]

They're not unfortunately. Have a look in the cab and you will see the voltmeter tells all.

That’s for the draw from the overheads.
Couplers are pretty much standard at 110v

 

[driver9000]

As pointed out it can be done for rescue purposes only but it's a last resort. It needs a man in a CAF van to come out too.

What does the CAF fitter need to do? Can the Civity UK mode be used to provide the through brake?

 

[Efini92]

What does the CAF fitter need to do? Can the Civity UK mode be used to provide the through brake?

You’d only need that being assisted by loco. 195-331 would be mechanical only so one would be a swinger

 

[Geeves]

Are there somethings in the TMS that only the CAF man in a van can access?

 

[tomuk]

That’s for the draw from the overheads.
Couplers are pretty much standard at 110v

I'm not sure of the exact voltages of the 195s and 331 but they follow the similar pattern of earlier MUs. 24v for Diesel and 110v for Electric. I think the only exception is the 175s/180s which run at a higher voltage.

 

[skyhigh]

That’s for the draw from the overheads.
Couplers are pretty much standard at 110v

No - the voltmeter (top centre of cab, next to the isolation switches) is different on 195s and 331s. 331s it should be pointing to 110v, 195s it is pointing to 24v. Those are the control voltages each class runs on - 195s pass 24v through the coupler.

 

[Efini92]

No - the voltmeter (top centre of cab, next to the isolation switches) is different on 195s and 331s. 331s it should be pointing to 110v, 195s it is pointing to 24v. Those are the control voltages each class runs on - 195s pass 24v through the coupler.

Oh yeah, sorry I forgot about that.
I thought the 195’s had a 110v system but now you say that I don’t think they do.

 

[Adam0984]

I heard that the option could have being added for a price but wasn't taken up to keep cost down

 

[D365]

I heard that the option could have being added for a price but wasn't taken up to keep cost down

It would have required a lot of work to design the 195s to a 110v native train voltage, instead of 24v.

 

[driverd]

As a train in service, no. The 195s are on the DMU standard 24v control circuits, the 331s are on EMU standard 110v (I say "standard" in the sense that this has been consistent with all other units I have signed/do sign currently).

I believe this is to do with the output from the DMU alternator to the batteries, vs the charge supplied from the EMU transformer. I'm not an engineer so I won't pretend to know any more than that - anyone with technical expertise feel free to add more to this rather basic explanation!

In practical terms, there's little to be gained by coupling them. Even a 3 car 195 would really struggle to haul a 3 car 331 at any sensible speed/rate of acceleration and there would be little routes where it would make sense to do so. Equally, you'd be asking the 331 to haul the 195 under the wires which would sap 331 power. The current compromise of non-electrical coupling and rescue situations only makes logic sense. I believe, though could be wrong (it's a while since I've worked one), that the brake feed can be passed when not electrically coupled, so you can avoid the issue of having to haul a "swinger" at 5 mph. Certainly is the case with a loco rescue.