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I think the point you have perhaps not quite appreciated (I'm not sure if anyone has clearly spelled it out) is that there are only four specific grounds on which a Penalty Fare can be appealed.
One last question. Surely there is a consumer/ombudsman standpoint? 'I'm a stickler for the rules', for the system to fail an organised consumer like me, many others with good intentions are in worse positions. Before coming to this forum today, I was mad enough to take this to some kind of consumer service/law?
Where you would have much better grounds for an appeal is the fact that you were allowed through the barriers. This constitutes clear evidence of permission to travel - why else would you be let through? I would make a GDPR "subject access request" to Network Rail (who manage Euston station) for a copy of the CCTV footage of you passing through the gateline. This will hopefully give credence to your account that you you spoke to a member of staff and were let through without showing a ticket.
Real-time train running information for 1Y25 0956 departure from London Euston to Birmingham New Street on 18/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
Did the OP get let through the Underground gates at each end to achieve that cross London journey, A well as the 2 sets of TOC gates?
If so that strikes me as a "Compelling Reason" why the Penalty Fare appeal should succeed. For the representatives of at least 2 railway organisations in 4 instances to "authorise" the OP to continue does suggest that overall they were in fact authorised.
BTW, the messages from the ticket sellers are actually often incorrect. Recently I bought TOD tickets from the Forum's site, telling me that I needed any card to enable collection. In reality, no card was needed. The notorious complexity of ticketing doesn't just apply to fares and validity and different fulfilments. It applies now to just about every facet. It's totally absurd to punish novice railway users for taking the words and actions of railway staff at face value.
Correct. Barriers:
- Lewisham rail entry
- London Bridge rail exit
- London Bridge tube entry
- Euston tube exist
No barrier at Euston, just walk (or in my case, run) to train. Again, no one told me I could collect at desk, everyone let me through given my explanation of machine error.
The messages from the ticket sellers are actually often incorrect. Recently I bought TOD tickets from the Forum's site, telling me that I needed any card to enable collection. In reality, no card was needed. The notorious complexity of ticketing doesn't just apply to fares and validity and different fulfilments. It applies now to just about every facet. It's totally absurd to punish novice railway users for taking the words and actions of railway staff at face value.
One last question. Surely there is a consumer/ombudsman standpoint? 'I'm a stickler for the rules', for the system to fail an organised consumer like me, many others with good intentions are in worse positions. Before coming to this forum today, I was mad enough to take this to some kind of consumer service/law?
You can always raise a complaint with the train company. If you're unhappy with their response you can ask for a "letter of deadlock" - this is generally issued after several rounds of back-and-forth correspondence, if it's clear they won't accept your complaint.
With a letter of deadlock, you can escalate the matter to the Rail Ombudsman for an adjudication on your complaint. You can also take it to the Ombudsman if 8 weeks have passed from when you raised the complaint and you haven't had a deadlock letter yet.
Unfortunately we haven't heard much, if any, good feedback about the Rail Ombudsman. They often seem to take the train companies' arguments at face value rather than probing them, and they clearly don't have much subject matter expertise so they often make decisions that appear utterly bizarre.
The alternative options you have would include contacting Transport Focus, who are the organisation who are supposed to represent passenger interests more broadly in public transport. However, they cannot force a train company to do anything - they can only try to convince them that it would be the right thing to do XYZ... So although they may sympathise with your situation, it won't necessarily change the outcome.
Otherwise you could also consider contacting your local Member of Parliament (MP)'s office. Again they can't force the train company to do anything, but they do have a bit more clout than just an individual passenger when writing to the train company. They can ultimately raise any major issues with the Department for Transport (which most operators are either part of, or operate under contract to) who could effectively force the hands of the train company, although that would be extremely rare.
That being said, a consistent theme I think you'll find across any of the above escalation options is that they'll say there is an established Penalty Fares appeal procedure with three stages of appeal. Therefore they will probably be reluctant to "relitigate" the matter, or undermine any decisions the appeals body makes.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Ok, this is quite an important fact which I hadn't appreciated - your description of passing through 4 × barriers implied (to me) that you had gone through barriers at the Euston National Rail station.
The fact that you didn't explicitly speak to any National Rail staff at Euston before boarding means that you can't appeal under Regulation 6(2)(d) - any conversations at previous stations such as Lewisham or London Bridge don't count, because they weren't "at the station where the passenger boarded the train", as Regulation 6(2)(d) would require.
That being said, I would suggest the fact you were let through the barriers at previous stations would likely still make for a reasonably strong "compelling reasons" appeal under Regulation 16(3)(d). And you still have the signage-based appeals that I alluded to.
Thanks all. Submitted my (much more condensed and to the point) letter. Fingers crossed.
If it doesn't work out, second appeal, I will go down the signage route.
Failing that, I'll pay the fine. Realistically not worth my time and will see the positive of finding out about this community and meeting all of you today. Frustrations aside, been very interesting! It goes down to half cost, from £100 to £50 (plus the ticket fare) if paid early? I hope in that circumstance they could at least waive the additional ticket fare, seeing as I did collect my tickets that day (return trip, returning next day).
And perhaps many years down the track, do some consumer advocating. It's truly a shambles, how are you to know as a truly well-meaning, organised rail customer.
Thanks all. Submitted my (much more condensed and to the point) letter. Fingers crossed.
If it doesn't work out, second appeal, I will go down the signage route.
Failing that, I'll pay the fine. Realistically not worth my time. It goes down to half cost, from £100 to £50 (plus the ticket fare) if paid early? I hope in that circumstance they could at least waive the additional ticket fare, seeing as I did collect my tickets that day (return trip, returning next day).
And perhaps many years down the track, do some consumer advocating. It's truly a shambles, how are you to know as a truly well-meaning, organised rail customer.
During a properly submitted appeal the clock is stopped on the prompt payment discount but you should not miss that deadline to obtain the £50 off
I’m not sure about the fare and if you could refund the ticket of the unused ticket. But you may have used it on your return depending on what type of tickets you held. Single each way or a return ticket for example. More frustrating complexity!
I’m not sure about the fare and if you could refund the ticket of the unused ticket. But you may have used it on your return depending on what type of tickets you held. Single each way or a return ticket for example. More frustrating complexity!
Both tickets were collected, the inbound and outbound were printed when I got to the destination via staff help. I meant that they could remove the additional ticket fare off the fine.
Just to confirm, the clock is stopped when I submit the appeal, and I can still get the discount if they reject the appeal, so I can still pay £50 off upon 21 days of receiving outcome?
Dare I suggest that (as with the examples in the Alanis Morrissette track) this isn't actually ironic, just annoying? Best of luck with the appeal though.
Dare I suggest that (as with the examples in the Alanis Morrissette track) this isn't actually ironic, just annoying? Best of luck with the appeal though.
Dare I suggest that (as with the examples in the Alanis Morrissette track) this isn't actually ironic, just annoying? Best of luck with the appeal though.
Realistically, your first appeal will be rejected. Once you receive the rejection, come back here for more advice.
My concern about your earlier draft reply was that it was too long. It should be short and succinct - the reader will have many letters to read each day, and you need to be very precise in your grounds of appeal, quote relevant regulations etc, in order to make it as easy to read as possible. Please come back for further advice and guidance - forum members have loads of experience in trying to get the best outcomes.
Just to confirm, the clock is stopped when I submit the appeal, and I can still get the discount if they reject the appeal, so I can still pay £50 off upon 21 days of receiving outcome?
Maybe not quite so you do need to keep an eye on it. I think any days in between the issue of the PF and the appeal would not be paused, then when they issue decision the clock restarts. Then if you do stage 2 appeal the clock is paused again etc.
If you pay the PF at any point during process to be sure of the discount sum not being lost then it would be refunded if any of the appeal stages are found in your favour aiui.
That is correct. Where an appeal is allowed however they can deem the fare still to be payable. If it is refused the fare element and penalty element always remain payable.
Will put a sum of money on all three appeals being rejected here.
If that was the complete notice (and you weren't given anything else, such as an extra leaflet) then you are very lucky as it doesn't comply with the regulations!
5(2) Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged—
...
(b) an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare;
"This is because you either made a jour entered a Compulsory Ticket Area and you were unable to produce a valid ticket or other authority to travel."
The explanation provided there is clearly nonsense and any sense you might get from that explanation is wrong because there is no Compulsory Ticket Area (within the scope of this Penalty Fare) at Euston.
But you don't even need to try to make the argument that the explanation given is nonsense because also:
(2A) in respect of England, the information provided by the collector must also include—
(a) in respect of the amount of the penalty fare—
...
(ii) the fact that the 21 days to pay the reduced amount of the penalty fare does not include any time on appeal;
This happened in England. The fact required by 5(2A)(a)(ii) is not stated, therefore you have a straightforward appeal under 16(3)(a) which must be accepted (under 17(4) if this gets to a second appeal).
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