Irish Mk 3s for sale

[TheMysticEgg]

Couldnt the same have been said for many of the Mk3's that ended up in store that are now back in traffic?

I seem to recall a Cl43 power car looking in much worse visual condition in store somewhere or other. Their all now back in use are they not?

Some very sorry looking ex-Virgin Mk3s were rescued from Long Marston and I believe are now back in service with FGW. The Cl43 you are probably thinking about is ex-Virgin 43101, now 43301 with CrossCountry. You really would have doubted it would ever make it back into service in it's final days of storage!

 

[EWS 58038]

I would think the Dft would support someone acquiring them, they should *in theory* be cheaper to run and free stock temporarily for refurbs.

Oy... don't expect the marsham street monkeys to have brains....


---EDIT---

Traxx loco's can be leased for £40.000 per calendar month and now that Bombardier is actually developing their TRAXX UK loco with LMD (Last Mile Diesel) it could indeed be attractive to set up a new ROSCO and lease the sets to whoever needs it, or to Open Access Operators. Imagine Grand Central using them.. It would not only improve fleet reliability and age, but save in fuel consumption and carbon footprint as well. I wonder whet Grand Centrals current fuel bill is for running their HST's and Adelantes under the wires for hundreds of miles...

I would be more then happy to see them on the Grand Central services to replace those awful Adelantes.

 

[tbtc]

I wonder whet Grand Centrals current fuel bill is for running their HST's and Adelantes under the wires for hundreds of miles...

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/9211164.Rail_operator___s_losses_mirror_previous_year/ is a starting point.

As I've said before on here, there's little real difference between the "Last Mile" Traxx that some people love and the "Hybrid" diesel/electric IEP units which most people seem to hate.

Sadly due to the "cheap and cheerful" nature of ECML electrification, the line from Selby to Hull and from Northallerton to Sunderland is a lot more than a "last mile" though

 

[87015]

As I've said before on here, there's little real difference between the "Last Mile" Traxx that some people love and the "Hybrid" diesel/electric IEP units which most people seem to hate.

The TRAXX is effectively a straight high performance electric loco which is very different to a hybrid unit which is carting around engines and fuel all day under the wires.

 

[northwichcat]

Couldnt the same have been said for many of the Mk3's that ended up in store that are now back in traffic?

The oldest Irish Rail mk3 is 9 years younger than the oldest BR mk3.

 

[tbtc]

The TRAXX is effectively a straight high performance electric loco which is very different to a hybrid unit which is carting around engines and fuel all day under the wires.

But how does the "last mile" part work, unless the TRAXX is carting around engines and fuel all day under the wires?

 

[hmp455]

They could be re-gauged and modified to Class 442 standards (essentialy the same type of coach but built as an EMU), but that might be a bit costly...

If re-gauged, they could be useful for Northern as Adelante replacments

 

[EWS 58038]

But how does the "last mile" part work, unless the TRAXX is carting around engines and fuel all day under the wires?

First you have your normal electrical kit... You run on it till you reach the point where the wires end. Then you fire up your diesel kit and continue running.... And I believe it has enough diesel capacity for the whole day. The difference between this Loco and IEP is power. where this loco has enough power to get to 125 mph on its electric engine... IEP doesn't and needs to have its diesel engine running under the wires to keep the train at speed. The reason for this... TRAXX diesel can not do 125 mp'h where IEP can. But this makes the TRAXX much lighter... and If I recal correctly, line speeds are pretty low from the point where the Grand Central HST goes of the ECML till Sunderland. On the LMD the traxx can still manage a good 100 mp'h which should do the job I guess.

 

[sprinterguy]

First you have your normal electrical kit... You run on it till you reach the point where the wires end. Then you fire up your diesel kit and continue running.... And I believe it has enough diesel capacity for the whole day. The difference between this Loco and IEP is power. where this loco has enough power to get to 125 mph on its electric engine... IEP doesn't and needs to have its diesel engine running under the wires to keep the train at speed. The reason for this... TRAXX diesel can not do 125 mp'h where IEP can. But this makes the TRAXX much lighter... and If I recal correctly, line speeds are pretty low from the point where the Grand Central HST goes of the ECML till Sunderland. On the LMD the traxx can still manage a good 100 mp'h which should do the job I guess.

From all I have read (I've had some difficulty finding more than a single source for the proposed "last mile" diesel engine rating), the TRAXX UK locos wouldn't be capable of managing 100mph on diesel power: It's only intended to be fitted with a diesel engine delivering 180kW at the rail, or about 240hp.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/9211164.Rail_operator___s_losses_mirror_previous_year/ is a starting point.

As I've said before on here, there's little real difference between the "Last Mile" Traxx that some people love and the "Hybrid" diesel/electric IEP units which most people seem to hate.

Sadly due to the "cheap and cheerful" nature of ECML electrification, the line from Selby to Hull and from Northallerton to Sunderland is a lot more than a "last mile" though

The "last mile" diesel engine intended to be fitted to the TRAXX UK locos will be simply that: A low output diesel power unit that will allow low speed shunting moves into sidings and yards off the wires (and maybe the ability to "limp" to the nearest station) and wouldn't be suitable for running from, say, Northallerton to Sunderland or Cardiff to Swansea on diesel power. The locos wouldn't be carrying around a particularly large weight in engines or fuel, unlike the IEP Bi-mode trains which are intended to have the power (Around 1800hp worth) and the range to operate for long distances off the wires. It is also still the intention I believe for a diesel engine to be running while the train is under the wires to provide power for the auxillary systems: This has been done in the past, with the Blue Pullman trains, but they were diesel powered anyway, and not electric which rather undoes any "green" credentials electrification might have.

 

[WatcherZero]

They fixed that problem of the IEP requiring one of its diesel engines in operation under the wires during one of the redesigns, they upped the transformers from 4 MW to 4.5 MW to provide more power.

 

[CP165]

They fixed that problem of the IEP requiring one of its diesel engines in operation under the wires during one of the redesigns, they upped the transformers from 4 MW to 4.5 MW to provide more power.

Why didn't they do that in the first place?

 

[route:oxford]

Why didn't they do that in the first place?

Perhaps it was a solution to the wrong problem...

It could be that the original engineers plan was to cycle through the engines in their provision of hotel power to keep them warm, lubed and operational - but the accountants didn't like it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The dateline of 2nd September 2011 which was set by Iarnrod Eireann for Expression of Interest has now passed and it will be interesting to see the next stage of the developments.

Of the 82 vehicles that were in this offer were 61 TSO, 10 TSOB and 11 Generator Vans.

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps it was a solution to the wrong problem...

It could be that the original engineers plan was to cycle through the engines in their provision of hotel power to keep them warm, lubed and operational - but the accountants didn't like it.

Roger Ford did all the sums and discovered that the 10 car bimode, which had a single diesel power car at one end and a single transformer car at the other, did not have enough electrical power to run at 125 mph under the wires. The diesel was going to have to provide a proportion of the traction load all the way along the electrified parts of the ECML and GWML. At that stage the bimode 10 car did not have a number of engines to cycle through, only the one.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The dateline of 2nd September 2011 which was set by Iarnrod Eireann for Expression of Interest has now passed and it will be interesting to see the next stage of the developments.

Of the 82 vehicles that were in this offer were 61 TSO, 10 TSOB and 11 Generator Vans.

The DBSOs (or are they DBFOs?) weren't included then? Without the driving cabs, they'll be a little less useful. I suppose they could be used with mainland UK mark 3 DVTs.

 

[455driver]

I seem to recall a Cl43 power car looking in much worse visual condition in store somewhere or other. They're all now back in use are they not?

That was 43104 which was basically an empty shell (with a tree growing out of the headlights), it was fixed up after 43029 or 43173 was written off, it is now 43304 in use with Cross Country.

 

[DarloRich]

I dont see why someone in the UK isnt sanapping these up. 80 extra vehicles to add to existing MKIII sets :roll: it seems a no brainer to me. How many operators could do with an exta MKiii trailer on, say an HST set?

From what I understand it should be should possible to alter, to UK gauge, the bogies they sit on without too much work.

Obviously there is the aquisistion and conversion cost to consider but i think it would be worth a go.

EDIT - The DBSO (or whatever) are NOT for sale

 

[sprinterguy]

That was 43104 which was basically an empty shell (with a tree growing out of the headlights), it was fixed up after 43029 or 43173 was written off, it is now 43304 in use with Cross Country.

That was 43101, not 43104, as is stated in post 61. 43104 fared much better as it passed to MML for use before it made its' way to the refurbishment programme for Crosscountry, whereas 43101 had been withdrawn from service with some sort of superficial accident damage, it was a total wreck:
http://www.therailwaycentre.com/General Picture file/43101.jpg

43029 hasn't been written off, it's still in service with FGW.

 

[RobShipway]

I dont see why someone in the UK isnt sanapping these up. 80 extra vehicles to add to existing MKIII sets :roll: it seems a no brainer to me. How many operators could do with an exta MKiii trailer on, say an HST set?

From what I understand it should be should possible to alter, to UK gauge, the bogies they sit on without too much work.

Obviously there is the aquisistion and conversion cost to consider but i think it would be worth a go.

EDIT - The DBSO (or whatever) are NOT for sale

If you look further into this forum and details that have been in both Modern Railways and Rail magazines, it has been looked at by some of the Rosco's at buying the Irish Mk3's to convert them to UK gauge. However, the problem comes with the doors on the coaches which are automatic rather than manual doors. Until the scheme to change existing HST and other MK3 coaches to have automatic doors that exist here in this country, I don't think any of the Irish Mk3's will be brought unless it is done by DB.

 

[43167]

That was 43101, not 43104, as is stated in post 61. 43104 fared much better as it passed to MML for use before it made its' way to the refurbishment programme for Crosscountry, whereas 43101 had been withdrawn from service with some sort of superficial accident damage, it was a total wreck:
http://www.therailwaycentre.com/General Picture file/43101.jpg

43029 hasn't been written off, it's still in service with FGW.

43104 had a long spell in store too and was stripped of just about everything, until VXC brought it back from the dead, and then it went to mml.

 

[cj_1985]

If you look further into this forum and details that have been in both Modern Railways and Rail magazines, it has been looked at by some of the Rosco's at buying the Irish Mk3's to convert them to UK gauge. However, the problem comes with the doors on the coaches which are automatic rather than manual doors. Until the scheme to change existing HST and other MK3 coaches to have automatic doors that exist here in this country, I don't think any of the Irish Mk3's will be brought unless it is done by DB.

which is a very valid point...
meaning that IF they were bought and shipped over here... they would probably have to be kept in pernamently coupled rakes of irish mk.3s and not mixed with the normal mainland mk.3s. unless the 2 different CDL sytems are (or can be made) compatible

plus even when the mainland mk.3s get fitted with automatic/sliding doors... its going to be a different system compared to whats fitted to the IE mk.3s... meaning different systems... or meaning the IE mk.3s would need a rebuild, to the same standard as the mainland mk.3s will recieve

 

[Yew]

Would it be possible to use the Irish mark 3's in Fixed formation (HST sets for example) or do they use the wrong flavour of electricity?

 

[sprinterguy]

43104 had a long spell in store too and was stripped of just about everything, until VXC brought it back from the dead, and then it went to mml.

That's a good point, it was out of use for a fair while at the very end of the nineties was it not? That would explain why 43029 was able to move across from VXC to FGW at the time, replacing the written off 43173 as 455driver therefore accurately describes. My mistake then, I hadn't considered to think that far back in terms of out of service power cars (43167 was out of use for a long while as well wasn't it?), only as far as immediately prior to the Arriva XC MTU fitting programme, and some of the decidedly dodgy condition power cars that were resurrected for that purpose.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would it be possible to use the Irish mark 3's in Fixed formation (HST sets for example) or do they use the wrong flavour of electricity?

The Irish mark 3s use a similar (as far as I know) three phase electric supply as the HSTs (But a different voltage perhaps?). They operated with generator cars when they were loco hauled in Ireland to provide the correct "hotel power".

 

[ainsworth74]

The Irish mark 3s use a similar (as far as I know) three phase electric supply as the HSTs (But a different voltage perhaps?). They operated with generator cars when they were loco hauled in Ireland to provide the correct "hotel power".

It's 220/380v on the IE Mk3s and 415/240v on the HST trailers so similar but not compatible. To be honest it seems to me that the best way of using them might well be to use them in fixed rakes with the IE generator vehicles rather than converting the the CDL and power systems.

 

[cj_1985]

It's 220/380v on the IE Mk3s and 415/240v on the HST trailers so similar but not compatible. To be honest it seems to me that the best way of using them might well be to use them in fixed rakes with the IE generator vehicles rather than converting the the CDL and power systems.

i can;t really see any TOC going for that...
XX number of carraiges... but 1 of them is taking up space, cant carry passengers, and is costing as much to run (Track access charges) as a passenger carrying vehicle.

best thing would be to put them into Wabtec.. be it doncaster, kilmarnock or BRUSH works (can never remember the right spelling for the town) and get them converted to either HST power Voltage, or to mainand LHCS voltage spec.

the other option.. and i dont know if its possible.. and is something i think was missed when converting previousl LHCS mk.3s to HST spec, is have them dual wired so that in theory they can be powered by normal ETH from a class 47, 67 or AC loco... and have the option for them to be powered from the HST PC... but then again maybe the cost of that isnt justifiable for the lack of use it would get for X years

 

[455driver]

That's a good point, it was out of use for a fair while at the very end of the nineties was it not? That would explain why 43029 was able to move across from VXC to FGW at the time, replacing the written off 43173 as 455driver therefore accurately describes. My mistake then, I hadn't considered to think that far back in terms of out of service power cars (43167 was out of use for a long while as well wasn't it?), only as far as immediately prior to the Arriva XC MTU fitting programme, and some of the decidedly dodgy condition power cars that were resurrected for that purpose.

Actually everyone is correct,
43104 was stored from 1998-2002 before being resurrected as a replacement for 43173 and
43101 was stored from 2004-2008 before going into the MTU program for Arriva XC.
So I reckon we will call that a draw!

I was amazed that some of those PCs were fixed up, but then I suppose the rebuilding involved was quite extensive even for a reasonable PC.

 

[GM078]

The DBSOs (or are they DBFOs?) weren't included then? Without the driving cabs, they'll be a little less useful. I suppose they could be used with mainland UK mark 3 DVTs.

Most of the IÉ Driving Trailers are actually scrapped (Despite only being built in the late 1980s). I believe three out of the five were cut up.

 

[DarloRich]

If you look further into this forum and details that have been in both Modern Railways and Rail magazines, it has been looked at by some of the Rosco's at buying the Irish Mk3's to convert them to UK gauge. However, the problem comes with the doors on the coaches which are automatic rather than manual doors. Until the scheme to change existing HST and other MK3 coaches to have automatic doors that exist here in this country, I don't think any of the Irish Mk3's will be brought unless it is done by DB.

Why should that be a problem? Can we not use power doors in the UK?

Would you not just, therefore, run the Irish MKiii as complete sets rather than inter mix them? Or if that is an issue for the ROSCO/TOC, simply rip the power doors out when you do an overhual and fit traditional doors. If they REALLY wanted to think of a way to ease over crowding they could do it.

It seems an ideal way to get hold of many proven, relaible, decent, comfortbale and perhaps more importantly, not life expired coaches, to increase services in the UK

 

[colchesterken]

Surely its is just a job for the sparks to wire up the spare DVT s with a door open and close button I assume the coaches are wired with buttons so the guard could open and clase them from in the train when they operated in Ireland

 

[bgstrowger]

Surely the IE Mark 3s could be put into use on the GEML Norwich services, where the power doors could reduce dwell times, thus freeing up the existing Mark 3s to move elsewhere.