• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

iPlayer 'Loophole' Closed

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jonny

Established Member
Joined
10 Feb 2011
Messages
2,577
Fraud is defined as: 'wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain' i.e it is not limited to private businesses/firms. Anybody can be guilty of it. Tax evasion is illegal and immoral, - the morality argument is the desperate defence of a criminal whose been found guilty.

First off, morality is not to be confused with legality.

As taxes are of dubious moral character in the first place, it can hardly be said to be immoral if one evades them (although I would advise against it). In fact, one could argue that crimes against the state - which include tax offences other than lying but the top of which is treason - have no standing in moral terms.

The law can often be immoral - not so much taxes (unlawful evasion is not worth the trouble), but other laws that I would break that are not applicable to the UK (compulsory military service - I would refuse the oath) or have broken in other jurisdictions (e.g. crossing the road on a red man).

PS you mean who's not whose; mind your apostrophes.

Aha, the anti-tax warrior's argument. Let's establish just what tax is, - as in sums levied under statute by an elected government. Society recognises that functioning of this country, like most others, requires that certain activities, infrastructure and services are funded by the population for the general good. The elected government collects a contribution from those that have the ability to pay. The sum collected pays for these activities, infrastucture and services. That's how most civilised countries, whether capitalist or communist, work.
Of course, the system works but we all feel the pain at times. It is inevitable that out of the 48m or so working age adults in the UK that there are some freeloaders who think that they should be exempt from contributing to the common good, either because they personally are expected to pay more than they wish to pay, or they are just too selfish to consider others and expect somebody else to make the sacrifice. Society puts up with their ranting but not with them evading paying their share. Tax evasion is a crime against society.

I see that you feel the need to exert your definition of taxation. That is your opinion of taxation.

Ah, but all that 'society' and 'democracy' do is to provide a veneer of legitimacy for mob rule. That's all that society is at its core, a mob. Society is a very poorly defined concept, and before you ask I do not consider myself to be a member. It also works out as some semi-accountable politicians primarily looking after their own electorate first and others second (I am just about old enough to remember that Liebour Labour are worse than the current incumbents). My personal views are to provide information and pay what is required upon demand (although I reserve the right to express my opinions to the agents and servants of the collector) because it isn't worth the trouble to argue (apart from through official channels and the courts where appropriate) and do the absolute bare minimum.

Would you care to define the "common good"? I would say that it is so poorly defined that there is no such thing. I say that ideally no-one should make the sacrifice unless they want to, if it can't be done by charity then it isn't worth doing. Then again, tax-funded schemes do have one use - I can use them to justify less charitable giving than I would otherwise do. In fact, studies have shown that higher taxes mean less charitable giving.

I also find that private and pseudo-private enterprises are often more effective at delivering services; one of the reason that the railways have worked so well is that even during the BR era they were pseudo-private, and while I might pay taxes grudgingly I willingly pay train fares, especially since the bylaws help to ensure that everyone is on their best behaviour (or better than they would otherwise). In contrast, the roads are a state-maintained wreck. It's not as though the private sector cannot provide roads.

The problem is that it is hard to ensure accountability when there is a virtually unlimited pot of money alongside powerful 'trade' unions. Anyone who uses the word "pain" to describe the effect of taxes has the wrong word, anger would be more appropriate.

I would say that there is no such thing as Society. There is, however, something known as Government. Even if there was such a thing as Society, I would describe it as being a mob of thieving <illegitimate offspring>, even worse than chuggers and their good wet causes. How can anyone commit a crime against something that has no direct physical presence? The phrase "E2R gang" springs to mind, although the government does have its uses...

And that's before I start ranting about the implications of having state-funded healthcare on the regulation of other aspects of life (to do with healthy/unhealthy activities).

I think the word "offence" should be considered in its wider English Language context, which means that someone else doesn't like but is otherwise (at least directly) unaffected. For things like tax offences and "Society"-level freeloading (avoidance of military service etc.) that is the key word. On taxation, there is a massive gulf between legality and morality.

'Taxation is theft", "legalised extortion" and "protection money" are just part of that rant.

The first was a hyperbolic quote that I only ever partially agreed with, the second and third are how I view tax bills. I would have no qualms about calling those who dedicate their career to collecting taxes as extortionists to their face.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Jonny

Established Member
Joined
10 Feb 2011
Messages
2,577
Are you a freeman of the land or something?

I wouldn't call myself a "Freeman'' or such like, but I do feel some sympathy for them. After all, everyone gains when the government is pushed back. I would advise against repeating their actions as they will have adverse fallout (particularly in terms of judicial "consequences") and will most likely achieve nothing, although I do admire them for having the courage of their convictions.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
32,909
Location
Fenny Stratford
I wonder if people like Jonny are happy to use the services the rest of us as tax players contribute towards. The NHS for example.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,029
Location
St Albans
I wonder if people like Jonny are happy to use the services the rest of us as tax players contribute towards. The NHS for example.

I think the argument about their rights then comes into play.

p.s. I like the term 'tax players'. :)
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,519
Location
Isle of Man
I wonder if people like Jonny are happy to use the services the rest of us as tax players contribute towards. The NHS for example.

No, they believe in "the market" and "private responsibility" right up until they get a serious health issue and their insurance refuses to pay for it. Then they suddenly decide they quite like communal healthcare.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top