Invalid ticket with FCC

[longcommute]

Hi, I would like some advice. I have looked through all the previous posts on this forum and haven't found a similar problem.

I have a 7 day travel card from Radlett to London zones 1-6.
I got to the station this morning and checked the train times and saw the quickest route for my journey was from Radlett changing at St Albans and getting a fast train into Kent House.

I got on the train and the ticket inspector came down and said my ticket wasn't valid because I was 'travelling' to St Albans and I had to pay £20. I told him I wouldn't pay £20 as I had a ticket from the station I got on at to my final destination.

He took my details and said they would write to me in 14 days for my version of events. I have spent all morning trying to work out what is happening, am I in the wrong here and if so what are the likely outcomes?

 

[tony6499]

S.Albans is north of Radlett so you can't travel that way into London

 

[longcommute]

But it is quicker, Radlett to Kent House via Herne Hill is 1hour 9minutes, but via St Albans it is 59 minutes.

 

[hluraven]

You did not have a valid ticket for your journey from Radlett to St Albans, or from St Albans back south.

If you had paid the £20 penalty fare it would now be over, but as you refused to pay that fare it will now be up to FCC to decide if they wish to prosecute or take any alternative action.

 

[longcommute]

Thanks for the quick replies. I didn't pay the penalty fare because I thought that having a ticket from where I began my journey to where I finished my journey entitled me to travel, especially as the route I took is by far the quickest. Is that not the case?

Without speculating too much what is it possible I would be prosecuted for?

 

[hluraven]

Thanks for the quick replies. I didn't pay the penalty fare because I thought that having a ticket from where I began my journey to where I finished my journey entitled me to travel, especially as the route I took is by far the quickest. Is that not the case?

Without speculating too much what is it possible I would be prosecuted for?

You are incorrect in your assumption that your ticket was valid. There are more knowledgable folk here than I am, but I believe they could prosecute for either a railway byelaw offence of not having a valid ticket which would be simple for them as it is a strict liability offence and you did not have a valid ticket.

I believe your refusal to pay the penalty fare could also allow them to pursue a stronger penalty of fare evasion, as it could be interpreted as evidence of intent to avoid paying rather than an error. I am not an expert or a lawyer, but in any case you will need to follow the advice to wait for their letter, respond honestly, and see what their communications say.

 

[Urban Gateline]

But it is quicker, Radlett to Kent House via Herne Hill is 1hour 9minutes, but via St Albans it is 59 minutes.

Time doesn't come into it I'm afraid, your season ticket is Valid between the points indicated on it, not to make a deviation further North, despite faster services it would be travelling beyond the validity of your ticket.

Why do you think Passengers pay over £900 more per year for a St Albans to Z1-6 annaual season ticket...

 

[longcommute]

Time doesn't come into it I'm afraid, your season ticket is Valid between the points indicated on it, not to make a deviation further North, despite faster services it would be travelling beyond the validity of your ticket.

Why do you think Passengers pay over £900 more per year for a St Albans to Z1-6 annaual season ticket...

Can't say I have ever thought about it before, but if if asked I would guess it was becasue they live in St Albans. If I get on a fast train from Radlett that goes directly to West Hampstead I don't pay more for that than an all stopper...

 

[LexyBoy]

Time doesn't come into it I'm afraid, your season ticket is Valid between the points indicated on it, not to make a deviation further North, despite faster services it would be travelling beyond the validity of your ticket.

But as we know, there are lots of examples of tickets which are perfectly valid via longer routes and via places with higher fares. In this case the RPI was correct however.

Unfortunately, National Rail Enquiries shows routes which are not permitted on a single ticket, and it is not obvious at all that the routes shown are not valid with one ticket.

 

[bb21]

Unfortunately although most people prefer to travel by the fastest route, the TOCs believe otherwise. They seem to be assuming (absurdly I may add) that most people want to travel by the shortest route (which could take much longer).

The shortest route is always valid, subject to geographical restrictions on the ticket. The fastest route is unfortunately not, so your assumptions are incorrect I am afraid.

You don't really have a leg to stand on in this case I am sorry to say.

 

[longcommute]

OK, it looks fairly clear that I should have paid the penalty fare. On the information given does it sound likley that tis will be a bye law offence or a Regulation of the Railways offfence. I'm starting to worry about CRB checks now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Could any one point out how much and when I should send an offer of an out of court settlement? I was thinking of offering £20 for the penalty fare and £200 to cover 'administritive costs' and to encourage them not to prosecute, also any ideas on how to word the offfer would be appreciated.

 

[tony6499]

Wait till you get the letter, then see what it says

 

[W230]

Could any one point out how much and when I should send an offer of an out of court settlement?

Wait until you hear from them in 14 days. There's nothing you can do until then.

An out of court settlement is not guaranteed to be accepted though. I have no idea how much you should offer. FCC have in the past worked out a figure from how much "out of pocket" the incorrect ticket has left them.

One passenger who was only buying a ticket for part of their journey and got caught ended up being offered an out of court settlement for a couple of years worth of travelling! They didn't have any way round it as they couldn't afford to have a criminal record so ended up paying it. I should add that I am not for one moment suggesting that will happen here.

 

[RPI]

Can't say I have ever thought about it before, but if if asked I would guess it was becasue they live in St Albans. If I get on a fast train from Radlett that goes directly to West Hampstead I don't pay more for that than an all stopper...

And if your assumed route WAS valid then everyone from St Albans would just buy the same ticket that you had in order to save money!:roll:

 

[longcommute]

And if your assumed route WAS valid then everyone from St Albans would just buy the same ticket that you had in order to save money!:roll:

Thanks for trying to help RPI but not sure your logic makes sense to the uninitiated. People traveling from st albans but buying a ticket from radlett wouldn't have a ticket from st albans. If, as I did you start a journey at radlett station with intention of getting to kent house its not illogical to think that that a ticket that is valid from radlett to kent house woudln't let you take the quickest route.

Thanks for the advice in general. This is a really useful forum and I will keep the thread posted with any update and requests for advice when I get the letter.

Can I expect to wait 14 days or is it usually sooner. Not knowing the outcome is the worst part.

 

[causton]

Thanks for trying to help RPI but not sure your logic makes sense to the uninitiated. People traveling from st albans but buying a ticket from radlett wouldn't have a ticket from st albans. If, as I did you start a journey at radlett station with intention of getting to kent house its not illogical to think that that a ticket that is valid from radlett to kent house woudln't let you take the quickest route.

Unfortunately this is not how the system works. If you have a season ticket you can get off at any stop on the way.

Let's say you wanted to do the journey Radlett - St Albans - London... but you wanted to get off at St Albans station, leave the station, go to the shops in St Peters St then come back and go to London? If the route was allowed you would be allowed to do this...

...but let's say someone else lives in St Albans, sees the Radlett ticket is cheaper but people go through St Albans on it all the time, and starts 'short' on the ticket by pretending he's come from Radlett in the morning?

 

[longcommute]

Unfortunately this is not how the system works. If you have a season ticket you can get off at any stop on the way.

Let's say you wanted to do the journey Radlett - St Albans - London... but you wanted to get off at St Albans station, leave the station, go to the shops in St Peters St then come back and go to London? If the route was allowed you would be allowed to do this...

...but let's say someone else lives in St Albans, sees the Radlett ticket is cheaper but people go through St Albans on it all the time, and starts 'short' on the ticket by pretending he's come from Radlett in the morning?

Yea, I can see how it could be abused. But I was getting off one train and crossing the platform to another. I wasn't leaving the station to enjoy the city.

I can see why its not valid now although it doesn't make it less frustrating. I'm kicking myself for not just accepting the penalty fare, and just hoping that in a worse case scenario of refusing to settle they go for a bye law offence.

 

[maniacmartin]

I know that its a little too late now, but if a similar situation arises in the future and you are not absolutely sure, pay the penalty fare. You can then research at home and appeal if necessary.

 

[tannedfrog]

Perhaps it is worth taking screenshots of the website showing the route used, if this supports your innocent mistake

 

[Realfish]

Apologies is I am muddying the waters, but I thought that (unless the ST is TOC specific) if you were off route an excess rather than a PF is the remedy. Once again, apologies if I'm wrong

NCOC S13
'If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.'

 

[longcommute]

Apologies is I am muddying the waters, but I thought that (unless the ST is TOC specific) if you were off route an excess rather than a PF is the remedy. Once again, apologies if I'm wrong

NCOC S13
'If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.'

Hi realfish, thanks for the reply.

What is an 'ST'

Thanks

 

[bb21]

Apologies is I am muddying the waters, but I thought that (unless the ST is TOC specific) if you were off route an excess rather than a PF is the remedy. Once again, apologies if I'm wrong

NCOC S13
'If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.'

You cannot be off-route if you are not travelling by a permitted route between the origin and the destination, which the OP is not. The concept of off-route only applies in situations where a higher fare applies to the route taken.

This is deviation from the route rather than off-route, or even over-riding depending on which angle you look at it from.

Hi realfish, thanks for the reply.

What is an 'ST'

Thanks

Season ticket.

 

[Realfish]

You cannot be off-route if you are not travelling by a permitted route between the origin and the destination, which the OP is not. The concept of off-route only applies in situations where a higher fare applies to the route taken.

This is deviation from the route rather than off-route, or even over-riding depending on which angle you look at it from.

Got it! Thanks.

 

[bb21]

The term off-route can be slightly confusing without context, which is one of the reasons why I believe that off-route excess are now called change of route excess and printed as "ALT RTE EXCESS" on tickets.

 

[yorkie]

I wonder what journey planner gave the itinerary via St Albans? The FCC journey planner does not. - actually the FCC journey planner does!

And if your assumed route WAS valid then everyone from St Albans would just buy the same ticket that you had in order to save money!:roll:

Hmm, you may be interested in the thread about Brentwood to London (via Shenfield). I don't want to drag this thread off-topic though. But there are certain general concepts being stated in this thread that are not always true.

Apologies is I am muddying the waters, but I thought that (unless the ST is TOC specific) if you were off route an excess rather than a PF is the remedy. Once again, apologies if I'm wrong...'

The term "off-route" may be best avoided as there are different interpretations and uses for it. But this would either be considered "travelling beyond destination" or could perhaps be considered "deviating from route" both of which can incur a Penalty Fare (with the usual caveats, ie, from a PF train, in a PF area, by an authorised collector etc...)

 

[island]

I know that its a little too late now, but if a similar situation arises in the future and you are not absolutely sure, pay the penalty fare. You can then research at home and appeal if necessary.

Alternatively, accept the penalty fare and pay the minimum payment of the single fare for the journey being made. You then have 21 days to appeal or pay the remainder.

 

[soil]

I wonder what journey planner gave the itinerary via St Albans? The FCC journey planner does not.

NRE does, but it says you need two tickets.

(16:36 and 16:18 trains)

 

[tony_mac]

NRE does, but it says you need two tickets.

(16:36 and 16:18 trains)

The mobile version doesn't. The only way of telling is to notice if it's a different price.

 

[aleph_0]

NCOC S13
'If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.'

I note that it says "ticket(s)", which implies a potential for a plural (but the first use of the word is a singular). The only reasonable interpretation I can make of this is that the intention is that one can by multiple tickets to cover a route which isn't permitted on a direct ticket. It could also be interpreted as allowing the cheapest split-ticket to be offered instead, but I find this a little surprising.

[Disclaimer: the OP should go with the advice of the more knowledgable members on here as to how it is interpreted in practice, my question is more an academic one than a practical one]

 

[longcommute]

The mobile version doesn't. The only way of telling is to notice if it's a different price.

I used the mobile traintimes app. In fairness when I looked at it last night it does have a different price, but as I thought I had a season ticket I didn't look at the different fares.