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If I purchase a ticket that has an 'invalid itinerary' (not the shortest route, or goes via some crazy route), and I follow that itinerary - what are the chances of it succeeding?
The 'main' ticket which has From / To shows 2 stations, but the reservations/itinerary isn't the shortest and goes through a bizarre route, would that ticket still need to be accepted regardless of price?
If I purchase a ticket that has an 'invalid itinerary' (not the shortest route, or goes via some crazy route), and I follow that itinerary - what are the chances of it succeeding?
The 'main' ticket which has From / To shows 2 stations, but the reservations/itinerary isn't the shortest and goes through a bizarre route, would that ticket still need to be accepted regardless of price?
It is entirely legally binding. The itinerary is essentially evidence of your contract. The most that can happen legally is the ticket is withdrawn for investigation due to a pricing/routeing error, and a zero fare ticket issued in lieu.
It is entirely legally binding. The itinerary is essentially evidence of your contract. The most that can happen legally is the ticket is withdrawn for investigation due to a pricing/routeing error, and a zero fare ticket issued in lieu.
The Train Manager attempted to charge me with a new anytime, first-class ticket from the station I started to where I was off to, or gave me the option to leave the train.
As I was with my partner - I chose to just leave the train and consult the ticket office, got onto the next train safe & sound, no issues on there.
Arrived home about 1h30m late - delay repay wasn’t really going to come in handy (considering the ticket price!), and a complaint led to nowhere.
If I were by myself, I’d want BTP or somebody from Revenue to come on-board and let them deal with it.
Avanti staff member booted me off because my reservations for his service (and the seats saying they’re reserved), and the itinerary “weren’t the shortest route”, so it wasn’t allowed.
Glad I didnt meet that manager then. A few years back in Virgin days I had a single from Stonehaven to the south coast via London. One 1st class advance ticket for the whole journey, not a set of splits.
Perhaps this is also a record as I was booked on three separate London bound trains.
Started off on the Aberdeen to Kings Cross from Stonehaven but changed at Edinburgh. Then an Edinburgh to Euston train but only as far as Carlisle. Finally from there on a Glasgow to Euston train. So definitely not the shortest or quickest route and I can understand the Carlisle change as the train I got off went via Birmingham so was overtaken by the one I next caught. This was a single ticket, with the itinerary provided by the National Rail site so I had no doubts it was valid as a route/fare.
Despite taking longer this had its advantages other than price as I was on three separate trains so got three lots of service rather than encountering the 'you already had some food' response I encountered once from the staff that got on at Newcastle (I think) when doing the entire Kings Cross to Aberdeen journey. I didnt think expecting two snacks during a 7 hour journey was unreasonable. In contrast on another separate Edinburgh to Aberdeen trip the staff couldnt have been more polite and were basically trying to empty the kitchen I think before they ended the shift as the food and drink positively flowed...well the food didnt flow unless they had a soup option but you know what I mean.
Glad I didnt meet that manager then. A few years back in Virgin days I had a single from Stonehaven to the south coast via London. One 1st class advance ticket for the whole journey, not a set of splits.
Perhaps this is also a record as I was booked on three separate London bound trains.
Started off on the Aberdeen to Kings Cross from Stonehaven but changed at Edinburgh. Then an Edinburgh to Euston train but only as far as Carlisle. Finally from there on a Glasgow to Euston train. So definitely not the shortest or quickest route and I can understand the Carlisle change as the train I got off went via Birmingham so was overtaken by the one I next caught. This was a single ticket, with the itinerary provided by the National Rail site so I had no doubts it was valid as a route/fare.
Despite taking longer this had its advantages other than price as I was on three separate trains so got three lots of service rather than encountering the 'you already had some food' response I encountered once from the staff that got on at Newcastle (I think) when doing the entire Kings Cross to Aberdeen journey. I didnt think expecting two snacks during a 7 hour journey was unreasonable. In contrast on another separate Edinburgh to Aberdeen trip the staff couldnt have been more polite and were basically trying to empty the kitchen I think before they ended the shift as the food and drink positively flowed...well the food didnt flow unless they had a soup option but you know what I mean.
You meet some top notch staff! On the next service I boarded I was spoiled with catering items; both from the shop & whatever was left in 1st Class — there was no host, so the TM & the (one) staff member in the shop just gave us whatever we wanted.
Was quite happy with that journey in the end
Some people are jobsworth, it’s hit or miss I think
Actually a jobsworth would allow you to travel, but do things like take photos of the ticket and/or note down the details and fill in a form for the matter to be investigated.
A jobsworth is someone who does their job to the letter without being pragmatic or considering common sense, but this member of staff did not do their job correctly and brought the rail industry and their employer into disrepute. This is not being a jobsworth; it's far worse.
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It's probably one of the bugs applying to Trainline's booking engine; if so, there is no harm revealing it now it's been fixed.
If a booking site allows a crazy itinerary, my advice is to book the origin and destination as obscure stations if possible, and to ensure there is no "doubling back" and never to act in a way that suggests you are not intending to do the full journey.
For example a journey from Wolverhampton to Cheltenham via Preston, Edinburgh, York & Birmingham on an Advance fare was possible and I wouldn't have had qualms using that.
However some people bought an anytime or off peak single from University to Birmingham which involved a double-back to Aberdeen or Edinburgh. This is a major failing as it involved calling at Birmingham New st twice. This is not the sort of itinerary I would book or travel on, unless I had specific permission to do so.
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....so got three lots of service rather than encountering the 'you already had some food' response I encountered once from the staff that got on at Newcastle (I think) when doing the entire Kings Cross to Aberdeen journey....
On LNER you get served twice: north of Edinburgh and south of Edinburgh. But not three times unless the crew happens to change (some do) at Newcastle or York, but any further discussion on that needs to be a new thread.
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Good luck with that! I don't think Avanti have any interest in ensuring all their staff are familiar with consumer and contract laws.
I believe @A Challenge experienced a badly behaved and poorly trained XC Train Manager who brought XC into disrepute under similar circumstances, which resulted in a complimentary 1st class ticket being issued for anywhere on the XC network.
About 10 years ago several forum members booked tickets from Baldock to North Sheen which involved a loop around Aberdeen and Inverness. Some staff tried to reject those tickets but all worked out well in the end.
But tickets can be rejected even if they are explicitly valid via the route being taken.
I also experienced an East Coast Guard who tried to claim a 'via Carlisle' fare was not valid when diverted via Carlisle as it was "a Cross Country" ticket (despite XC no longer going via Carlisle); I refused to pay the excess, he said he would tell the next Guard to charge me. The next Guard accepted the ticket.
An infamous Guard (who is still around) told @OwlMan that a via Peterborough ticket was not valid via Peterborough; he is still working for LNER. The same Guard rejected many other valid tickets including a Tyne & Wear Metro day pass between Newcastle and Sunderland, and refusing to accept a combination of tickets for a Norwich to York journey when the first train was late, despite their employer issuing instructions to accept that tickets in their recent Pricing & Ticketing Update publication issued to all staff. Not only is he still at the company, he is training other staff too. To be fair, I am sure he has learnt from these experiences and I've not heard any recent reports of wrongdoing.
The rail industry doesn't particularly bothered about its legal obligations or reputational issues in respect of honouring tickets.
It is important to take great care when interacting with anyone who claims a valid ticket is not valid and to be calm at all times, take care regarding the use of appropriate language and ensure the moral high ground is retained.
Actually a jobsworth would allow you to travel, but do things like take photos of the ticket and/or note down the details and fill in a form for the matter to be investigated.
A jobsworth is someone who does their job to the letter without being pragmatic or considering common sense, but this member of staff did not do their job correctly and brought the rail industry and their employer into disrepute. This is not being a jobsworth; it's far worse.
It's probably one of the bugs applying to Trainline's booking engine; if so, there is no harm revealing it now it's been fixed.
If a booking site allows a crazy itinerary, my advice is to book the origin and destination as obscure stations if possible, and to ensure there is no "doubling back" and never to act in a way that suggests you are not intending to do the full journey.
For example a journey from Wolverhampton to Cheltenham via Preston, Edinburgh, York & Birmingham on an Advance fare was possible and I wouldn't have had qualms using that.
However some people bought an anytime or off peak single from University to Birmingham which involved a double-back to Aberdeen or Edinburgh. This is a major failing as it involved calling at Birmingham New st twice. This is not the sort of itinerary I would book or travel on.
It was indeed this - wasn’t too sure whether posting it would be a good idea or not.
Itineraries I held were Glasgow Cen - Argyle Street (m-ticket too! So I still have the full itinerary on the app on scotrail) & Edinburgh - Haymarket, both routed via Birmingham. No doubling back either.
Most staff didn’t give me any bother - just weird looks & asked why I was going all the way around.
Good luck with that! I don't think Avanti have any interest in ensuring all their staff are familiar with consumer and contract laws.
I believe @A Challenge experienced a badly behaved and poorly trained XC Train Manager who brought XC into disrepute under similar circumstances, which resulted in a complimentary 1st class ticket being issued for anywhere on the XC network.
About 10 years ago several forum members booked tickets from Baldock to North Sheen which involved a loop around Aberdeen and Inverness. Some staff tried to reject those tickets but all worked out well in the end.
They aren't that common, but when they happen, people tend to quietly tell others about them, so you can get a fair few bookings being made. Of course once published on a web forum or social media site, the loophole will promptly be fixed.
During the most recent bug, a few members of rail staff who encountered such tickets were harassing customers asking where they found out about it, which I felt was really inappropriate behaviour.
Most of the recent bugs from the past 4 years have been in Trainline; several members reported finding bugs in their systems from 2018 onwards (such as the common routeing points issue bug)
I believe @TT-ONR-NRN may have experience of using tickets which allowed travel from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly via London Euston, or via Birmingham / Sheffield.
The ones before that tended to be other systems; the system developed by Atos Origin seemed to be the most prone to bugs a few years ago.
Avanti staff member booted me off because my reservations for his service (and the seats saying they’re reserved), and the itinerary “weren’t the shortest route”, so it wasn’t allowed.
The Train Manager attempted to charge me with a new anytime, first-class ticket from the station I started to where I was off to, or gave me the option to leave the train.
As I was with my partner - I chose to just leave the train and consult the ticket office, got onto the next train safe & sound, no issues on there.
Arrived home about 1h30m late - delay repay wasn’t really going to come in handy (considering the ticket price!), and a complaint led to nowhere.
If I were by myself, I’d want BTP or somebody from Revenue to come on-board and let them deal with it.
My reading of these two statements is that they are "at odds" with each other. The first implies that you were compelled to leave the train against your wishes, the second suggests you chose to leave the train in preference to the alternative choice.
That aside though it is very disappointing to read the way in which this was dealt with by the TOC.
It is entirely legally binding. The itinerary is essentially evidence of your contract. The most that can happen legally is the ticket is withdrawn for investigation due to a pricing/routeing error, and a zero fare ticket issued in lieu.
Whilst this is correct to a point, what "can happen legally" often diverges from what may well happen in practice and can lead to inconvenience and even prosecution. So a lot of the time, it can come down to how much capacity one has to tolerate same. Regardless of how right one is, for many, the stress and effort that could be incurred will outweigh the saving.
If by "coding error" you mean a situation where a retail system's output does not correspond the routeing guide and fares data, there are enough instances where customers pay more than they should. Sometimes extravagantly more. Even when informed about these "coding errors" the industry does nothing. Consequently, as a customer I would see no reason to be morally conflicted if, for once, I noticed a "coding error" in my favour.
During the most recent bug, a few members of rail staff who encountered such tickets were harassing customers asking where they found out about it, which I felt was really inappropriate behaviour.
That’s extremely inappropriate - and I would be very unhappy if that happened to me. I spoke to many staff members about said bug (it had been fixed by this point) and most were happy for me.
I believe @TT-ONR-NRN may have experience of using tickets which allowed travel from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly via London Euston, or via Birmingham / Sheffield.
These things get fixed so quickly as soon as it’s reported internally.
Interestingly enough, when it first “arose”, the route which was provided to me was Exeter St David’s to Exeter Central via Edinburgh, which was fixed promptly — but the other “via” routing points weren’t fixed, and were still available for purchase
It was only later on did every one get fixed.
Travelling from Edinburgh to Exeter on the ECML, only to do it back via the WCML was a fun way to get my mileage up! (Same with Glasgow to Tamworth & back to argyle street)
Most of the recent bugs from the past 4 years have been in Trainline; several members reported finding bugs in their systems from 2018 onwards (such as the common routeing points issue bug)
My reading of these two statements is that they are "at odds" with each other. The first implies that you were compelled to leave the train against your wishes, the second suggests you chose to leave the train in preference to the alternative choice.
That aside though it is very disappointing to read the way in which this was dealt with by the TOC.
Apologises - yes, I was given a choice of either a new purchase or to leave the train at the next stop as the TM deemed my ticket invalid.
I chose to leave as it was the better choice - it wouldn’t have been guaranteed that I would’ve obtained a refund from Avanti after the fact if I purchased two first class anytime singles from Birmingham to Haymarket…
I chose to leave as it was the better choice - it wouldn’t have been guaranteed that I would’ve obtained a refund from Avanti after the fact if I purchased two first class anytime singles from Birmingham to Haymarket
Avanti staff member booted me off because my reservations for his service (and the seats saying they’re reserved), and the itinerary “weren’t the shortest route”, so it wasn’t allowed.
If I'm reading it right, you had a seat reservation for your service?
A separate ticket which clearly states the service departure time, journey and seats?
Yet, the staff member refused to accept it?
Note: I occasionally use a loophole fare as well, and I make sure I have the reservation ticket in case of arguments (which luckily hasn't occured yet)
An apology for failing to respect the principle that any itinerary from an accredited retailer is valid for travel, and an assurance that staff involved will be re-trained wouldn't be an unreasonable response.
Yes, I am less than convinced too. I just ordered fish and chips via an app and a menu item was showing as £0.00 and I would not have felt right about ordering it, it was a clear error (if I had wanted it I would have pointed it out and asked to pay for it once I arrived).
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If by "coding error" you mean a situation where a retail system's output does not correspond the routeing guide and fares data, there are enough instances where customers pay more than they should. Sometimes extravagantly more. Even when informed about these "coding errors" the industry does nothing. Consequently, as a customer I would see no reason to be morally conflicted if, for once, I noticed a "coding error" in my favour.
I think there are errors and errors, if you see what I mean. I might chuck in a speculative post in a bit about whether it is right to take advantage of such things or not.
Yes, I am less than convinced too. I just ordered fish and chips via an app and a menu item was showing as £0.00 and I would not have felt right about ordering it, it was a clear error (if I had wanted it I would have pointed it out and asked to pay for it once I arrived).
There is a significant difference between ordering something for £0 (which means there is unlikely to be any consideration and hence any contract) and ordering something for a very low price, say £1. Ryanair sell flights for pittances (I've bought plenty for £5 myself); the fact that the railway is generally more expensive than this doesn't mean it can't be right.
I think there are errors and errors, if you see what I mean. I might chuck in a speculative post in a bit about whether it is right to take advantage of such things or not.
I don't think anyone has a moral duty to 'do right by the railway', any more than it is morally wrong to minimise the amount of taxes one pays to a government whose spending priorities one might disagree with, for example. Ultimately the legal duty is all that is really relevant.
There is a significant difference between ordering something for £0 (which means there is unlikely to be any consideration and hence any contract) and ordering something for a very low price, say £1. Ryanair sell flights for pittances (I've bought plenty for £5 myself); the fact that the railway is generally more expensive than this doesn't mean it can't be right.
Talking of this specific case, I think it is glaringly obvious that a ticket for a short, direct journey isn't intended to be used via a place 200 miles away. There is no way anyone could possibly be confused into thinking this was genuine, nor would any person not seeking to take advantage of it ever think of doing it.
Avanti should have accepted it and reported it for correction, which as you say is the legal position, but I think this sort of thing is llke the occasional £0.01 50" tellies on Amazon - it is clearly not intended to be sold at that price.
If a ticket for London to Edinburgh was priced at £1 that is more like your Ryanair example - no reason to believe it isn't a genuine offering - but nobody reasonable would think a ticket from University to Birmingham should be valid via Scotland.
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