Introduction of mk 3 stock on WCML

[hexagon789]

Was Birmingham then the only destination that had a mixture of Mark 2/3 coaches by 1989?

Birmingham/Wolverhampton was effectively all Mk2F sets bar the introduction of the DVTs and RFM vehicles. The one exception was the Up only Birmingham Pullman which used a Mk3 set and was timed for 110mph.

 

[Transilien]

Birmingham/Wolverhampton was effectively all Mk2F sets bar the introduction of the DVTs and RFM vehicles. The one exception was the Up only Birmingham Pullman which used a Mk3 set and was timed for 110mph.

Interesting, I always thought that it was random if a mk2/3 set was diagrammed pre-pendelino.

 

[Ken H]

Pre-1984/5 there were two differences between the Mk3A and Mk3 braking:

1. The 3A had its braking rate reduced to more equal that of the tread braked stock; this was to reduce brake wear as it was quickly found that in mixed sets the Mk3 vehicles did most of braking at medium and higher speeds and consequently wore their brakes more quickly. The enhanced braking rate was restored from 1984 as part the 110mph running.

2. The HSTs had a two-stage brakes until 1985, when the pad material and mountings were altered in such a way that the reason for the two-stage system was rendered unnecessary and it was isolated. Only the power cars had the two-stage system. Consequently again, the trailers did more of the braking effort at the highest speeds, with the power cars having their braking rate reduced above 90mph originally.

Edit: I should add the conclusion to that - essentially the Mk3 trailers had more braking effort placed on their brakes and at potentially higher speeds; the harder the brake effort the greater the brake wear, the greater the brake "stink"

Also on an HST the brake hoses were pressurised/de-pressurised from both power cars, to the brakes were more reactive. I assume the drivers brake control movements were sent down the train wires to the rear power car, which then adjusted the brake pipe pressure.
I think thats right.

 

[jfollows]

Interesting, I always thought that it was random if a mk2/3 set was diagrammed pre-pendelino.

The Euston/Birmingham/Wolverhampton trains were timed at 100mph (+) whereas the majority of other trains were timed at 110mph (++) with the exception previously noted of 1P02 07:33 Birmingham-London. So the Mark 2 sets had to be diagrammed for the 100mph services since they weren't allowed to run at 110mph.

 

[hexagon789]

Interesting, I always thought that it was random if a mk2/3 set was diagrammed pre-pendelino.

Essentially the Euston-Birmingham/Wolverhampton were Mk2 air-cons from the introduction of same to the route right up until the Pendolinos.

The other routes varied until the move towards homogeneous formations. For Glasgow that started in 1984 with the initial introduction of limited 110mph running and was complete the following year when all Glasgow trains were timed for that speed.

The remaining routes had sets that were made up according to the needs of capacity rather than as fixed rakes of one type of coaching stock.

In 1989, sets were moved over to fixed formation with there being essentially three types of Mk3 formation and three of Mk2F, the latter including 4 non-push-pull sets for Euston-North Wales.

This was further consolidated later, so that when Virgin withdrew the LHCS in favour of Pendolinos there were only a few different formations in use.

Also on an HST the brake hoses were pressurised/de-pressurised from both power cars, to the brakes were more reactive. I assume the drivers brake control movements were sent down the train wires to the rear power car, which then adjusted the brake pipe pressure.
I think thats right.

Yes, though application only. Release is effected conventionally.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I got a 7 day all line Railrover that year and sampled both routes and Mk3s. Great era

 

[AY1975]

Essentially the Euston-Birmingham/Wolverhampton were Mk2 air-cons from the introduction of same to the route right up until the Pendolinos.

The other routes varied until the move towards homogeneous formations. For Glasgow that started in 1984 with the initial introduction of limited 110mph running and was complete the following year when all Glasgow trains were timed for that speed.

The remaining routes had sets that were made up according to the needs of capacity rather than as fixed rakes of one type of coaching stock.

In 1989, sets were moved over to fixed formation with their being essentially three types of Mk3 formation and three of Mk2F, the latter including 4 non-push-pull sets for Euston-North Wales.

This was further consolidated later, so that when Virgin withdrew the LHCS in favour of Pendolinos there were only a few different formations in use.

I also seem to recall that you occasionally used to get all Mark 2 sets on the Manchesters (and maybe also on Liverpools and Glasgows). Not sure if there were any Euston to Manchester, Liverpool or Glasgow services that were booked for all Mark 2 sets or if it was just random what kind of stock you got.

 

[hexagon789]

I also seem to recall that you occasionally used to get all Mark 2 sets on the Manchesters (and maybe also on Liverpools and Glasgows). Not sure if there were any Euston to Manchester, Liverpool or Glasgow services that were booked for all Mark 2 sets or if it was just random what kind of stock you got.

Depends very much on the period. Pure Mk3 sets with Mk1 RKB/RBR and BG seemed to only last until 1977 once all the seated vehicles were in traffic, then sets became more mixed with the 2E/F vehicles.

Late-70s to 1987-8 (with the exception of Glasgow services from 1985), most sets on the Euston - Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow workings were often booked mixed Mk2/Mk3 formations, even if just the odd Mk2F FO or TSO in a set.

In the mid-80s, other than the Pullmans sets were mostly made up according to necessary seating capacity for the diagram with some very mixed sets booked, particularly to Liverpool.

Then as the 80s went on, BR switched to more homogenised formations of all Mk2F or all Mk3 (bar catering and full brakes), in preparation for the introduction of push-pull working.

Mk2F sets (bar RFM and DVT/NHA) were booked a few Sunday duties off the EBW route, as well as the Carlisle semi-fast on weekdays.

They would also be stepped up as necessary, there are more than a handful of photos showing 2F sets on the Royal Scot for instance either in the 1990s under BR or right into Virgin days in the 2000s.

 

[AY1975]

Can anyone remember when Mark 3s were first used on Euston-Holyheads? Maybe my memory is playing tricks but I seem to recall that some of the Holyheads were Mark 3s for a time in the early 1980s but they had all reverted to Mark 2s by the late 80s.

At least in the early to mid 80s you also sometimes got Mark 1s or Mark 2A/B/Cs on the Holyheads, though, especially on the summer Saturday extras.

 

[hexagon789]

Can anyone remember when Mark 3s were first used on Euston-Holyheads? Maybe my memory is playing tricks but I seem to recall that some of the Holyheads were Mark 3s for a time in the early 1980s but they had all reverted to Mark 2s by the late 80s.

At least in the early to mid 80s you also sometimes got Mark 1s or Mark 2A/B/Cs on the Holyheads, though, especially on the summer Saturday extras.

A search of all the PTMs from 1980-87 inclusive has the main Holyhead workings as Mk2 air-cons.

The dated and relief workings are mostly Mk1 in the earlier 1980s, switching to Mk2 pressure-vents after a few years.

By 1987, even some of the reliefs had air-cons in their formation.

 

[AY1975]

The Mk3 restaurant buffet cars weren't ready yet I assume, I don't think they appeared until 1979? Though I'm not sure whether they were planned from the outset or an afterthought.

I think part of the issue was changing dining habits, which manifested in the very early alteration to GWML 253 HST set catering arrangements.

Yes, and as I recall Mark 1 buffets remained commonplace on the WCML until at least the mid 1980s even in otherwise all Mark 3 or mixed Mark 2/3 rakes. Around that time I seem to recall some Mark 3 restaurant buffet cars entered service on the WCML with low back seats that were meant specifically for passengers taking meals, probably especially Second/Standard Class passengers who it was thought would return to their normal seats on completion of their meals if there was still some time to go before the end of the journey.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, and as I recall Mark 1 buffets remained commonplace on the WCML until at least the mid 1980s even in otherwise all Mark 3 or mixed Mark 2/3 rakes.

Some of the Mk3 Pullman sets in the mid-80s usually had a full Mk1 RKB kitchen car and a Mk3 RUB. The spare Glasgow Mk3 set had a Mk3 RKB instead of Mk3 RUB.

Ultimately, until the standardisation of sets into all Mk2F or all Mk3 in 1989, Mk1 RKBs were still pretty common on the busy peak workings which required full meal service.

Around that time I seem to recall some Mark 3 restaurant buffet cars entered service on the WCML with low back seats that were meant specifically for passengers taking meals, probably especially Second/Standard Class passengers who it was thought would return to their normal seats on completion of their meals if there was still some time to go before the end of the journey.

Possibly the two RSM prototypes? They trialled the later adopted modular catering concept, but unlike the later design RFMs which became standard, they had second class seating of the type fitted in the APT-P.

 

[The exile]

How long did it take to reslove (or largely resolve) that random burning rubber smell, you used to dred it coming through the heating grilles.

As a child I was convinced that that smell was caused by the burgers that were being proudly advertised as one of the “new things” available from HST buffets. Strangely enough, I was never tempted (which, given what we now know about BSE was possibly no bad thing!)

 

[Transilien]

How long did it take to reslove (or largely resolve) that random burning rubber smell, you used to dred it coming through the heating grilles.

I’ve smelt that recently on a ScotRail HST. It’s an awful smell

 

[Helvellyn]

I seem to recall some Mark 3 restaurant buffet cars entered service on the WCML with low back seats that were meant specifically for passengers taking meals, probably especially Second/Standard Class passengers who it was thought would return to their normal seats on completion of their meals if there was still some time to go before the end of the journey.

Possibly the two RSM prototypes? They trialled the later adopted modular catering concept, but unlike the later design RFMs which became standard, they had second class seating of the type fitted in the APT-P.

Yes, at least one of the prototype Modular catering vehicles, 10200/10201 (converted from redundant HST TRUKs 40519/40520) had low backed seating in a 2+1 layout and with no overhead luggage racks. Think a Mark 3A version of the seating area of a Mark 1 RBR. I have a picture in an InterCity 21 booklet and the seats seem padded, covered in a leatherette type material.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2025 ==

How long did it take to reslove (or largely resolve) that random burning rubber smell, you used to dred it coming through the heating grilles.

That, and the wheezing of the air-conditioning units that was particularly noticeable during a station stop from the outside.

 

[hexagon789]

That, and the wheezing of the air-conditioning units that was particularly noticeable during a station stop from the outside.

I always thought that was to do with the levelling valves for the air suspension?

 

[Helvellyn]

I always thought that was to do with the levelling valves for the air suspension?

Maybe, but I remember seeing Sleepers stabled in platform 8 at Carlisle during the day making the noise when they were empty!

 

[hexagon789]

Maybe, but I remember seeing Sleepers stabled in platform 8 at Carlisle during the day making the noise when they were empty!

Fair enough, can't argue with that!

 

[AndrewE]

How long did it take to reslove (or largely resolve) that random burning rubber smell, you used to dred it coming through the heating grilles.

My understanding is that a damper was put over the a/c inlet worked by the brake pipe pressures so that there was no inflow of roasting brake pad resin to the saloons during braking.
There was a concern that white asbestos from the pads might be in that airflow too, but extensive analysis failed to find any and it was concluded that we had proved (as predicted) that the temperature and pressure of braking was enough to completely destroy whatever bits of the asbestos got shaved off the pads.

 

[Forty29]

Used to travel on the 6 50 to Manchester Piccadilly which were Mk3's to find class 40's from 1982. This was the only early service to accept Saver tickets. I remember them to be extremely rough riding though guessing it was the track. Though I remember the smell they didn't seem as bad as the Western region 125's.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2025 ==

Find class 40's around Manchester and the North West not hauled by them in Mk3's that is.

 

[AY1975]

In 1977 I used to go home from school on 1A70 17:12 Manchester-Euston, so clearly later than the introductory diagrams mentioned above; I only moved house to Bollington in December 1976 so although I’d observed the Mark 3 stock before then I only used it between Manchester and Stockport.

I remember the new train smell and ensuring I got on board well before departure time to get a window seat with a good view.

As I recall for many years, both under BR and at least in Virgin pre-Pendolino days, the Stockport calls on Euston-Manchesters were set-down only northbound and pick-up only southbound, although I don't know how strictly that was enforced. I would guess that in the early days of Mark 3s, many enthusiasts and lay passengers alike who rarely travelled further afield on them broke that rule just to sample the new vehicles.

 

[hexagon789]

As I recall for many years, both under BR and at least in Virgin pre-Pendolino days, the Stockport calls on Euston-Manchesters were set-down only northbound and pick-up only southbound, although I don't know how strictly that was enforced. I would guess that in the early days of Mark 3s, many enthusiasts and lay passengers alike who rarely travelled further afield on them broke that rule just to sample the new vehicles.

Same with Watford Junction and on certain services, Runcorn.

 

[jfollows]

As I recall for many years, both under BR and at least in Virgin pre-Pendolino days, the Stockport calls on Euston-Manchesters were set-down only northbound and pick-up only southbound, although I don't know how strictly that was enforced. I would guess that in the early days of Mark 3s, many enthusiasts and lay passengers alike who rarely travelled further afield on them broke that rule just to sample the new vehicles.

They were, and they were absolutely not enforced.
1A70 mentioned in my post was pick up only at Macclesfield as well, and was probably the busiest train of the day there for setting down passengers, it just wasn’t announced as a call but nobody bothered.

 

[L+Y]

As a slight aside to this thread: when were the first mk2 workings on and around the WCML? Very anecdotally I've seen late steam on early mk2s on railtours in 1968, but not on service trains. A lot of WCML expresses seem to be entirely mk1 until at least 1970, with earlh mk2s dribbling in thereafter, but quite quickly replaced by mk3s on the main expresses as per this thread?

 

[hexagon789]

As a slight aside to this thread: when were the first mk2 workings on and around the WCML? Very anecdotally I've seen late steam on early mk2s on railtours in 1968, but not on service trains. A lot of WCML expresses seem to be entirely mk1 until at least 1970, with earlh mk2s dribbling in thereafter, but quite quickly replaced by mk3s on the main expresses as per this thread?

Mk2Z appeared in 1966, concurrently with the introduction of the regular electric Euston to Liverpool and Manchester service.

 

[AY1975]

Mk2Z appeared in 1966, concurrently with the introduction of the regular electric Euston to Liverpool and Manchester service.

I've started a new thread on the introduction of non-aircon Mark 2s at

Introduction of Mark 2Z/A/B/C stock

As there are already threads on the introduction of Mark 2 air conditioned stock at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/introduction-of-mark-2-air-conditioned-stock.286812/ and on the introduction of Mark 3 stock on the West Coast Main Line at...

www.railforums.co.uk

There's also a thread on the introduction of Mark 2 air conditioned stock at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/introduction-of-mark-2-air-conditioned-stock.286812/

 

[30907]

Possibly there was another roster covering the morning Man. Vic to Glasgow direct (non-portion) train which then formed a GLC-EUS service?

Fairly certain that became Mk3 too.

 

[D365]

Also on an HST the brake hoses were pressurised/de-pressurised from both power cars, to the brakes were more reactive. I assume the drivers brake control movements were sent down the train wires to the rear power car, which then adjusted the brake pipe pressure.
I think thats right.

My follow-up question is whether Mk3 coaching stock (be that loco hauled or DVT) have through wiring to operate the E70 brake control unit at the remote end. I’m still not sure about loco hauled, but your post (and the post linked) seem to suggest that yes, there is through wiring for the brake code steps.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Latter 1980s, certainly on Western Region, I could still smell the brake pads' dust when the HSTs braked.
I didn’t smell it on WCML Mk3 LHCS though.

I remember this until the 2000s or later, always at Didcot Parkway for some reason.

 

[Harpo]

My follow-up question is whether Mk3 coaching stock (be that loco hauled or DVT) have through wiring to operate the E70 brake control unit at the remote end. I’m still not sure about loco hauled, but your post (and the post linked) seem to suggest that yes, there is through wiring for the brake code steps.

Mk3s used in non-HST push-pull had no extra wiring as the existing RCH cables carried the comms information between the loco/DVT/DBSO computer racks.

I can’t be certain, but I don’t believe that DVT/DBSO braking was propagated from both ends of the train set???