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Introducing panoramic carriages on scenic routes

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philosopher

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Would it be a good idea to introduce first class panoramic carriages on scenic routes such as the West Highland and the Settle to Carlisle lines to attract higher paying tourists to these routes? Such carriages would be similar to those used on the Glacier and Bernina Expresses in Switzerland and would have at a minimum complimentary tea / coffee and snacks. Such carriages would be in addition to normal second class carriages.

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backontrack

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Nope, because the forum doesn't like this kind of passengers. They're not 'proper' ones in the eyes of many sadly.
 

Journeyman

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Nope, because the forum doesn't like this kind of passengers. They're not 'proper' ones in the eyes of many sadly.
It's got nothing to do with that, and a lot more to do with the really high costs of developing suitable stock. It's hardly going to happen at the moment, is it?
 

JonathanH

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Nope, because the forum doesn't like this kind of passengers. They're not 'proper' ones in the eyes of many sadly.
They are best served by charter operators. If they can make such coaches viable and there is capacity for the trains then there is no reason to cater for them.
 

6Gman

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They are best served by charter operators. If they can make such coaches viable and there is capacity for the trains then there is no reason to cater for them.
And the charter operators operate by using relatively cheap older stock. Getting a return on specially developed brand new stock in a market which is niche, and limited in days of operation (well, in theory it could operate 363 days a year bit the market on a November Tuesday or a January Thursday will be pretty limited) seems unlikely.

As @Journeyman points out the issue is the financial return and I can't see it being there.
 

JonathanH

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And the charter operators operate by using relatively cheap older stock. Getting a return on specially developed brand new stock in a market which is niche, and limited in days of operation (well, in theory it could operate 363 days a year bit the market on a November Tuesday or a January Thursday will be pretty limited) seems unlikely.

As @Journeyman points out the issue is the financial return and I can't see it being there.
Yes, you are entirely correct - the idea isn't viable.
 

30907

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Swiss panoramic coaches (supplementary-fare or not - ISTR there are now some of the latter) are a response to the specific topography of the country and its railways.
What would be realistic for the next generation of stock on the West Highland etc would be:
1. less densely spaced seating with windows to match (certainly feasible)
2. taller windows up to cantrail level - provided that is structurally sound and would permit (say) 75mph running.
 

Mcr Warrior

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What was run (by way of observation carriage(s) with live commentary) on the back of Inverness -> Kyle of Lochalsh line services back in the day (early 1980's) and when did the service continue until?

Think this may have featured on one of Michael Palin's earlier TV travelogues, (not "Pole to Pole", if that helps!)
 

JonathanH

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What was run (by way of observation carriage(s) with live commentary) on the back of Inverness -> Kyle of Lochalsh line services back in the day (early 1980's) and when did the service continue until?

Think this may have featured on one of Michael Palin's earlier TV travelogues, (not "Pole to Pole", if that helps!)
Yes, there was a class 101 driving car converted into an observation carriage for backward, not panoramic views. However, it fitted with the operation of the day, ie with class 37 and mark 2 carriages.

I note that the converted 153 'active travel' carriages being introduced now to couple to 156s are extra space for bicycles and not panoramic views. Indeed, they appear to have views obscured by contravision. However, it shows what has been prioritised over a higher class of travel and enhanced views.
 

haggishunter

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I note that the converted 153 'active travel' carriages being introduced now to couple to 156s are extra space for bicycles and not panoramic views. Indeed, they appear to have views obscured by contravision.
Had a quick noisy at one last week in Queen Street. The windows with seats are not obscured, the contra vision is only over the windows with bike and luggage racks.

Incidentally the 153 arrived sandwiched between a 156 and a 170!
 

30907

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I note that the converted 153 'active travel' carriages being introduced now to couple to 156s are extra space for bicycles and not panoramic views. Indeed, they appear to have views obscured by contravision. However, it shows what has been prioritised over a higher class of travel and enhanced views.
153s were available and bike/luggage space was needed; panoramic coaches are unavailable and less necessary.
 

Bletchleyite

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Would it be a good idea to introduce first class panoramic carriages on scenic routes such as the West Highland and the Settle to Carlisle lines to attract higher paying tourists to these routes? Such carriages would be similar to those used on the Glacier and Bernina Expresses in Switzerland and would have at a minimum complimentary tea / coffee and snacks. Such carriages would be in addition to normal second class carriages.

I suppose the WHL Class 153s are a sort of example of this "money for old rope" - 153s are hardly special but they do have a "wall of glass" and quite high windows which will be quite good for viewing mountain scenery. The seats less so - but I still think they will do well.

The windows of the seating area are not covered with contravision.

So yes, I think they should, and to a limited extent they are doing. Any new stock should really give serious consideration to having "proper" First Class.
 

Spamcan81

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Yes, there was a class 101 driving car converted into an observation carriage for backward, not panoramic views. However, it fitted with the operation of the day, ie with class 37 and mark 2 carriages.

I note that the converted 153 'active travel' carriages being introduced now to couple to 156s are extra space for bicycles and not panoramic views. Indeed, they appear to have views obscured by contravision. However, it shows what has been prioritised over a higher class of travel and enhanced views.
If it's the one I think you are on about, it may have looked like a Class 101 but was in fact a former Caledonian Railway Engineers saloon.
 

JonathanH

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Ken H

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Post Covid, where the railway will need all the revenue it can get, shrugging and saying 'too difficult' may not be an option.
Reconfiguring trains so seats align with windows, having more groups of 4 seats round a table will encourage leisure travel on scenic lines. Leaflets of what to see on the journey, perhaps with a bit for kids to play 'I spy' as they go along. and a bit for younger kids to colour in. All helps.
 

Bletchleyite

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Post Covid, where the railway will need all the revenue it can get, shrugging and saying 'too difficult' may not be an option.
Reconfiguring trains so seats align with windows, having more groups of 4 seats round a table will encourage leisure travel on scenic lines. Leaflets of what to see on the journey, perhaps with a bit for kids to play 'I spy' as they go along. and a bit for younger kids to colour in. All helps.


They don't seem to be marketing it very well but they have done most of those things.
 

Mcr Warrior

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The Michael Palin travelogue programme "Great Railway Journeys of the World" filmed in or around 1980 refers to a converted 1897 restaurant car being in use on the Kyle line. About 47 mins 45 secs in on the below clip...

 

JonathanH

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Post Covid, where the railway will need all the revenue it can get, shrugging and saying 'too difficult' may not be an option.
Revenue isn't the only need - keeping costs under control is just as important - proving children with colouring books isn't year round revenue, neither is an observation coach.

You are right however that small inexpensive changes might be a good thing if they can be identified. I note that 156s and 158s do already have a mix of seating arrangements and not all passengers are travelling in groups.
 

Spamcan81

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The Michael Palin travelogue programme "Great Railway Journeys of the World" filmed in or around 1980 refers to a converted 1897 restaurant car being in use on the Kyle line. About 47 mins 45 secs in on the below clip...


That's the ex-Caledonian Saloon. There was also an ex-GWR saloon in use and that's the one I rode in c.1982.
 

Journeyman

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Revenue isn't the only need - keeping costs under control is just as important - proving children with colouring books isn't year round revenue, neither is an observation coach.

You are right however that small inexpensive changes might be a good thing if they can be identified. I note that 156s and 158s do already have a mix of seating arrangements and not all passengers are travelling in groups.
Yeah, I often travel alone and I much prefer airline seats for that. At least some should be provided in all trains.
 

6Gman

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Post Covid, where the railway will need all the revenue it can get, shrugging and saying 'too difficult' may not be an option.
Reconfiguring trains so seats align with windows, having more groups of 4 seats round a table will encourage leisure travel on scenic lines. Leaflets of what to see on the journey, perhaps with a bit for kids to play 'I spy' as they go along. and a bit for younger kids to colour in. All helps.
Yes, but that's not what the OP was suggesting. He asked about "First Class panoramic coaches" which is something entirely different
 

philosopher

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That's the ex-Caledonian Saloon. There was also an ex-GWR saloon in use and that's the one I rode in c.1982.
Introducing commentary on the surrounding scenery from a guide or through the intercom in one of the carriages sounds like it should be quite easy to introduce.
 

tbtc

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Post Covid, where the railway will need all the revenue it can get, shrugging and saying 'too difficult' may not be an option

Depends how expensive it's gong to be, considering how many passengers are going to be a premium each year - I don't know how much each 153 conversion will have cost ScotRail but how many additional Glasgow - Fort William fares do you have to flog to pay for it?

What economies of scale are there for building such bespoke stock versus the number of lines where you'd be running them?

Are you converting the limited number of 153s still around (which would be a lot more complicated/expensive than just converting them to bicycle storage) or are your building them as DMUs that can operate with a variety of other DMUs (since the different UK lines where such "scenic" tock operated aren't all operated by one type of DMU)?

Or are these going to be unpowered carriages that a DMU can haul (since we don't want our rich tourists to have to listen to underfloor engines)?

Would they have corridor connections to the other carriages on the train? Not that this will help if the rest of the train is a 170 of course. Are you expecting to have a dedicated member of staff in the panoramic carriages?

Will a single carriage be sufficient to cope with all of the different sizes of groups that would want to travel together (or alone)?

To take one line as an example (e.g. WHL), would the panoramic carriage be on one service/diagram a day or would you be wanting to have a panoramic carriage on each service?

Switzerland at least has more of a year round demand, whilst the demand for "panoramic" coaches will be less given that it gets dark in northern Scotland around half three in the afternoon during winter.

Commentary on the scenery sounds feasible but there's a difference between "commentary on an open top bus service, where you're only doing it once" and "commentary on what the dozen bus stops are between my house and the city centre on a modern Stagecoach/First vehicle" (which gets repetitive very quickly and a bit annoying - I know that enthusiasts on here like to complain about the frequency of announcements on trains) - is there an implication that these lines (or at least the First Class on these lines) is only going to be something that people would do once, rather than several times (at which they'd get annoyed by the repetition)?

Don't get me wrong, it sounds like a lot of fun - I grew up doing things like sitting in the rear carriage of 101s in East Lothian to look through the "driver" windows to see where we'd come from, occasionally getting a shock as an HST came past in the opposite direction and the whole DMU wobbled slightly in the draft - it'd be nice if a solution could be found (that doesn't involve spending millions of pounds on a very marginal increase in revenue on some remote routes - I think there'd be a lot of arguments from people seeing "urban" routes cut whilst funds are found for "vanity projects"

One thing that doesn't tend to be mentioned in these threads is that providing such daily services on routes like the Settle & Carlisle (one of the OP's examples) may make a number of rail tours uneconomic (it wouldn't remove all of their passengers, sure, but if people can travel over Ribblehead in some swanky panoramic carriages for the price of a regular First Class ticket then it's going to be harder to get them to pay for a rail tour)

I do agree with the idea that we could make some cheap improvements to attract "leisure" passengers. Nowadays, if you go into a mainstream pub (e.g. Wetherspoons) you'd expect them to hand out crayons/ colouring sheet for kids - it's expected - I liked the idea that Grand Central had where they have chess/drafts boards on the tables - an easy/ cheap way of providing some entertainment for the family - maybe there's a separate thread to be had about low budget ways of making train travel "nicer" for families (without "introduce compartments for solo travellers, replace all of the seats" etc etc)
 

Bletchleyite

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I do agree with the idea that we could make some cheap improvements to attract "leisure" passengers. Nowadays, if you go into a mainstream pub (e.g. Wetherspoons) you'd expect them to hand out crayons/ colouring sheet for kids - it's expected - I liked the idea that Grand Central had where they have chess/drafts boards on the tables - an easy/ cheap way of providing some entertainment for the family - maybe there's a separate thread to be had about low budget ways of making train travel "nicer" for families (without "introduce compartments for solo travellers, replace all of the seats" etc etc)

That wasn't actually Grand Central's idea - there was an XC Mk2 set running around like that in the 90s (lovely wooden panelled interior on that set too). It is a good idea though.
 

Ken H

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Yes, but that's not what the OP was suggesting. He asked about "First Class panoramic coaches" which is something entirely different
no. but his idea seemed to be shot down in flames. I was suggesting some cheaper alternatives.
 
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