Interviewed under caution for expired railcard

[WombatTrain]

Details:

Traveling from: Cardiff Central
Travling to: Bristol Temple Meads
Railcard: 26-30
Traveling with: Great Western Railway

I have, inadvertently, been travelling on the train for 2 months with an expired railcard through Trainline. I got stopped today by what I thought was a conductor but they were actually some form of ticket police. She took my name, address, email address, phone number and my ticket details.

She read me my rights – but emphasised this was a civil rather than criminal matter – and we did a short, recorded, interview. She said that they would perform an investigation into my account to see how many discounted journeys I have had – and that I would likely be asked to pay the amounts I was incorrectly discounted. I estimate this would be in excess of £100 (excluding any fine), and my employer would normally pay for my tickets but wouldn’t pay this new amount I will be liable for.

I have no problems in immediately settling any amounts owed due to the discount I incorrectly received, but am worried about any other implications.

Questions:

• What is the likely outcome here? In terms of fine/proceedings etc
• Is there any action I can take between now and receiving the letter from GWR that will help to mitigate?

 

[Kilopylae]

1. From what you have described, payment of outstanding costs plus a more or less punitive 'admin fee' seems most likely, although experts will soon be along to advise.
2. It might be useful to purchase a new Railcard if you have not done already – it shows good faith.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum!

In terms of what's likely to happen, have a look at GWR's 'Revenue Protection Policy' at https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdf...on-policy/revenue-protection-policy.pdf?la=en

The important bit is on pages 11 and 12:

We’ll do our best to settle out of court.

Prosecution can have serious consequences on your personal and professional life. So, if you don’t pay your fare, we will do everything we can to avoid taking you to court.

We’ll probably send you an offer to settle out of court – usually asking you to pay an amount to cover your fare and our costs.

It's most likely that GWR will let you settle this out of court. So it will cost you money but you won't get a criminal record.

For the moment, there's nothing to do to move things along. But I would suggest that
- you make a note of what happened, what you said and so on while it's still fresh in your mind. This is just in case you end up having to argue with GWR over what has happened
- keep a close eye on your incoming post. If you don't keep in touch with the railway, the matter will end up in court - and that would mean a fine and a criminal record. So you need to answer any letters that they send you.

 

[WombatTrain]

1. From what you have described, payment of outstanding costs plus a more or less punitive 'admin fee' seems most likely, although experts will soon be along to advise.
2. It might be useful to purchase a new Railcard if you have not done already – it shows good faith.

Thank you, good advice

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2022 ==

Welcome to the forum!

In terms of what's likely to happen, have a look at GWR's 'Revenue Protection Policy' at https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdf...on-policy/revenue-protection-policy.pdf?la=en

The important bit is on pages 11 and 12:



It's most likely that GWR will let you settle this out of court. So it will cost you money but you won't get a criminal record.

For the moment, there's nothing to do to move things along. But I would suggest that
- you make a note of what happened, what you said and so on while it's still fresh in your mind. This is just in case you end up having to argue with GWR over what has happened
- keep a close eye on your incoming post. If you don't keep in touch with the railway, the matter will end up in court - and that would mean a fine and a criminal record. So you need to answer any letters that they send you.

Ah thanks, I did spend some time searching but didn't get that detail and other posts about different providers worried me!

Appreciate the info and advice, thank you.

 

[RPI]

Also, you will be given a credit for fares paid, so they'll effectively take off what you have already paid.

 

[AlterEgo]

She read me my rights – but emphasised this was a civil rather than criminal matter

Are you sure? Because, nope, it is a criminal matter. Was she wearing a bodycam? Request the footage immediately, it's probably any evidence collected cannot be used in court.

Interviews conducted by RPIs are done under PACE rules and the caution is to let you know that you do not have to say anything and you have the right not to incriminate yourself. An interviewer stating the caution and then saying they are talking to you about a civil matter and not a criminal one will have serious implications for the evidence they collected from you.

“You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.”

– and we did a short, recorded, interview.

What did you say? What admissions, if any, did you make?

 

[WombatTrain]

Are you sure? Because, nope, it is a criminal matter. Was she wearing a bodycam? Request the footage immediately, it's probably any evidence collected cannot be used in court.

Interviews conducted by RPIs are done under PACE rules and the caution is to let you know that you do not have to say anything and you have the right not to incriminate yourself. An interviewer stating the caution and then saying they are talking to you about a civil matter and not a criminal one will have serious implications for the evidence they collected from you.

“You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.”

What did you say? What admissions, if any, did you make?

Are you sure? Because, nope, it is a criminal matter

She definitely said it's a civil matter at present - I think I looked so dumbstruck and surprised at the severity that she was trying to reassure me maybe?

Was she wearing a bodycam? Request the footage immediately, it's probably any evidence collected cannot be used in court.

Yes. I will request the footage now.

What did you say? What admissions, if any, did you make?

I gave my name and my contact details. She also took a photo of my ticket. She asked if I had a valid railcard at present and I said I thought I did but it has expired. There was not much else, other than me asking how the process works from here and her giving me a ticket to use at the station and for the return.

Thank you for the advice, I'll ask for the footage and await notice from them I guess. Based on other responses I am hopeful that it will just be a case of paying the differences between discount + full price plus a small admin fee.

 

[Haywain]

She definitely said it's a civil matter at present - I think I looked so dumbstruck and surprised at the severity that she was trying to reassure me maybe?

I suppose it could be regarded as a civil matter until such time as criminal charges are issued.

 

[AlterEgo]

I suppose it could be regarded as a civil matter until such time as criminal charges are issued.

Not at all - the purpose of the interview under caution is to collect evidence to support a criminal investigation.

You can't caution someone you suspect of a criminal offence, and then immediately tell them it's not a criminal manner but a civil one. The cautioned person is cautioned so they know they do not have to incriminate themselves!

 

[furlong]

She definitely said it's a civil matter at present - I think I looked so dumbstruck and surprised at the severity that she was trying to reassure me maybe?

Was that before, during or after questions in the recorded interview? Could you have misunderstood something she said, for example about the possibility of settling a criminal matter out-of-court? If a Penalty Fare had been imposed on you on the spot, then that might have been described correctly as a civil matter. In any case, as AlterEgo says, if true, it's a matter the train company must take very seriously as it has the potential to undermine previous convictions where this person was involved in the evidence chain and could open a can of worms if malpractice is cultural.

 

[reb0118]

Civil can mean different things in different situations - especially the law.

"Let's keep things civil" could mean no argy bargy OR "I'll treat this as a civil debt".

Then there is the difference between criminal and civil law OR the difference between common and civil law (aka Roman law) - which also has criminal elements.

Ultimately, in this case, if you keep things "civil" I'm sure you can work out a suitable administrative penalty that will close the matter to your mutual satisfaction.

As suggested above the trick is to remain engaged with the process.

 

[Tallguy]

The whole purpose of any voluntary interview such as this is to gather evidence against you by letting you incriminate yourself. Give only the information you are required to under law and nothing else. You are then able to review your position and take legal advice if you wish to.