Interview under caution

[Rt]

Hello All!

I use standard Oyster card with 7day travel card for my everyday traveling.It is weekly travel card for zones 2-5. I start my journey at zone5 (dagenham east) and ends journey at East Croydon (zone5). The route I usually take is via Canada water which is in zone 2. Having my work place inside the station I don't have to go outside the physical barrier and donot touch out at the gates! I was advised in the past that if I have the valid weekly pass I donot necessarily have to touch out. Since I donot have to go out of the station I donot go and touch out at the physical barrier.
I always top up some money in my oyster just in case I have to go to zone 1, which I do sometimes.

Last week I received an email from Tfl, that they want to have an interview under caution regarding my usages of travel card since they flagged out for my incomplete journeys. The address in my email was incorrect and the no letter was sent.

Matter of fact, I called them back to find out if it was for real. And found out it was real and was called for the interview.

I attended to the interview voluntarily to find out the problem and explain them the situation.

They are assuming that I do travel from zone 1 because it is quicker route but costs more. Hence I donot touch out to evade fare, which is not true.

If I have to use the zone1 (London bridge),I physically have to use two barriers which are always manned and closed, no way of getting out without touching my Oyster card. But they seems unconvinced.

After the interview concluded, I was told to wait for 4-6 weeks for the response from Tfl.
I am concerned and confused!
Any suggestions and help will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Regard
Rt

 

[maniacmartin]

Just to clarify, you take the Jubilee line via North Greenwich to Canada Water, and then take the Overground southbound via Surrey Quays?

Do you touch the pink reader at Canada Water?

Finally, your workplace inside East Croydon station, on the platform side of the gateline?

 

[MikeWh]

Do you touch on the pink validator at Canada Water? That is the way to indicate that you've avoided zone 1 when using PAYG or a travelcard that excludes zone 1.

The route they may be thinking you take is via Farringdon which would not involve a touch out and in. I wouldn't consider that much faster though as the stretch between Blackfriars and London Bridge is incredibly slow and tortuous.

Can your employer provide details of times that you are at work? Could these tie up with touch in times at Dagenham and actual journey details from the timetable?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There should be CCTV available showing which route RT is using, surely? They will know exactly when he touches in at the start of his journey in the morning and out on the way home - if they have a picture of him* then it's easy enough to trace his entire journey from both station and onboard CCTV.


*Which they should do - aren't all formal interview rooms covered by CCTV now? If not, easy enough to get a verified picture to them.

 

[Rt]

Hello!

Thank you for the response.
Yes I do take jubliee line via north greenwich to canada water and take the overground southbound via surrey quays and change at new cross gate for the southern railway.

But i donot touch my oyster card at pink validator because it never occurred to me.

I can get the timesheet of starting my shift.

 

[Hellfire]

If TfL are accusing you of avoiding what they consider is the correct fare it is up to them to provide the evidence and make it clear what offence they think you have committed. It is certainly not up to you to prove your innocence.

Is it normal for TfL to haul people in for an interview? I know you have already attended but I'd have been inclined to refuse and get them to provide their accusations in writing.

I'd be interested to know where this goes.

 

[andykn]

So they are assuming that you don't touch out to prevent showing a quicker journey time only available if you've travelled via zone 1?

 

[telstarbox]

To the OP: how do other employees at your workplace get in and out of the station if they don't travel by train? Is there a special "access only" pass?

 

[thedbdiboy]

This is quite an unusual situation and I'm not surprised that the gateline record of your journey would flag up as suspicious, even though your route and ticket are legitimate.
As advised earlier, it would be up to TfL to prove any misuse, and assuming that there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to validate your usage (i.e. evidence of home address and where you work etc) I can't see that they could build a credible case. I think the more important issue will be for you to agree with them an acceptable way that your (legitimate) use of the ticket can be accommodated without undue inconvenience to you.

 

[andykn]

This is quite an unusual situation and I'm not surprised that the gateline record of your journey would flag up as suspicious, even though your route and ticket are legitimate.
As advised earlier, it would be up to TfL to prove any misuse, and assuming that there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to validate your usage (i.e. evidence of home address and where you work etc) I can't see that they could build a credible case. I think the more important issue will be for you to agree with them an acceptable way that your (legitimate) use of the ticket can be accommodated without undue inconvenience to you.

It may not be as unusual as you think, I could get an Oyster season to get from Wandsworth Town to Canary Wharf, not via zone 1 and never touch out at Wandsworth Town on the way home as the barriers are shut off by 6.45.

 

[island]

To the OP: how do other employees at your workplace get in and out of the station if they don't travel by train? Is there a special "access only" pass?

One presumes they use a station staff ID.

 

[RJ]

Rt, I'm sorry to hear of your predicament - it's not a nice situation to be in. I've assisted others with having such errant actions withdrawn. Feel free to send a Private Message if you wish to discuss this further. To be honest, I don't see this going any futher if you haven't been via Zone 1 without paying.

There should be CCTV available showing which route RT is using, surely? They will know exactly when he touches in at the start of his journey in the morning and out on the way home - if they have a picture of him* then it's easy enough to trace his entire journey from both station and onboard CCTV.


*Which they should do - aren't all formal interview rooms covered by CCTV now? If not, easy enough to get a verified picture to them.

It has been demonstrated that they do this. In The Tube, it was shown that they were following the actions of a passenger who was making a journey, something like Highbury and Islington to Ladbroke Grove. His Oyster usage flagged up as suspicious and they traced him on CCTV before sending staff out to catch him in the act. He got done for fare evasion. Although they did not fully explain what happened, it is my belief that he had a Zone 2-3 Travelcard on Oyster and validated in such a way that he could travel via Zone 1 without paying for it.

 

[Rt]

Thank you all for your opinion and advice! I am really appericiate it.

 

[Clip]

I think you really need to explain the whole working inside the station malarky. If TfL have collared you it may be that they have already followed you on your journey after identifying you and if you work on the railway itself then this abuse of ticketing could land you in very hot water with your company.

Be truthful, have you ever and I mean even once gone another way?

 

[Rt]

I do travel via zone1 sometimes. But as I have already mentioned that I always pre top up some money with my weekly travel card just in case I have to travel via zone1.
Also I would like to clarify, I was not stopped by RPI, I was sent an email which has my wrong address. I attended the interview voluntarily just to clarify the situation.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I think you really need to explain the whole working inside the station malarky. If TfL have collared you it may be that they have already followed you on your journey after identifying you and if you work on the railway itself then this abuse of ticketing could land you in very hot water with your company.

Be truthful, have you ever and I mean even once gone another way?

Well if he works in one of the shops on the platform I can understand why he wouldn't be inclined to touch out his travelcard as that would involve the long walk up the ramp to where the barriers are!

 

[Mojo]

I do travel via zone1 sometimes. But as I have already mentioned that I always pre top up some money with my weekly travel card just in case I have to travel via zone1.
Also I would like to clarify, I was not stopped by RPI, I was sent an email which has my wrong address. I attended the interview voluntarily just to clarify the situation.

In which case then, no, you have not paid for travel via zone 1. If you go outside of your Travelcard zones for this journey then you will not pay the correct fare for your journey unless you touch in and out.

Is it normal for TfL to haul people in for an interview? I know you have already attended but I'd have been inclined to refuse and get them to provide their accusations in writing.

I have not heard of TfL holding interviews but know of a number of London Underground interviews. The purpose of the interview is to ask people for their side of the story and perhaps put forward some mitigation; just like when the police may call people in after an assault, for instance.

*Which they should do - aren't all formal interview rooms covered by CCTV now? If not, easy enough to get a verified picture to them.

It's just an interview carried out using the same tape recording equipment as the police/Home Office agencies and other investigatory people, there are no 'formal interview rooms.'

 

[Rt]

In which case then, no, you have not paid for travel via zone 1. If you go outside of your Travelcard zones for this journey then you will not pay the correct fare for your journey unless you touch in and out.
I have not heard of TfL holding interviews but know of a number of London Underground interviews. The purpose of the interview is to ask people for their side of the story and perhaps put forward some mitigation; just like when the police may call people in after an assault, for instance.



It's just an interview carried out using the same tape recording equipment as the police/Home Office agencies and other investigatory people, there are no 'formal interview rooms.'

When I travel via zone 1, I always touch in and touch out because this is not covered by my weekly travel card. It's only when I donot travel via zone 1, I donot touch out my Oyster card.
Regards

 

[Clip]

Well if he works in one of the shops on the platform I can understand why he wouldn't be inclined to touch out his travelcard as that would involve the long walk up the ramp to where the barriers are!

Maybe so but surely they would still have to sign in somewhere other than the unit so that in case of a fire then people know who is there and not given that it is beyond the barrier line?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Maybe so but surely they would still have to sign in somewhere other than the unit so that in case of a fire then people know who is there and not given that it is beyond the barrier line?

Hmm I'm not so sure, we have contractors/new shop staff sign in and out at my station as visitors but those permanently working in the shops on the platform get a security ID and don't sign in and out! I guess if there were to be a fire then tenants are responsible for themselves, similarly, passengers don't get role-called if there's a station evacuation!

 

[34D]

He got done for fare evasion. Although they did not fully explain what happened, it is my belief that he had a Zone 2-3 Travelcard on Oyster and validated in such a way that he could travel via Zone 1 without paying for it.

In which case then, no, you have not paid for travel via zone 1. If you go outside of your Travelcard zones for this journey then you will not pay the correct fare for your journey unless you touch in and out.

Hmm - i'm not so sure about this. The requirements when travelling with oyster are to touch out at the start and end of one's journey, correct?

If I choose to travel via Farringdon there is no obligation (that I can see) to walk to an exit gateline and re-enter.

Remember TfL made the decision that certain journeys are deemed via zone 1 and certain journeys are not.

If I use PAYG and touch in at Highbury and out at Ladbroke then it is up to TfL to program the system if they deem the correct journey to be changing at King's Cross (vic to H&C) and again at Paddington (H&C to certain NR platforms not involving passing a gateline.

Or do we now need to advise every oyster user to exit at an interchange station and re-enter?

 

[bb21]

Hmm - i'm not so sure about this. The requirements when travelling with oyster are to touch out at the start and end of one's journey, correct?

If I choose to travel via Farringdon there is no obligation (that I can see) to walk to an exit gateline and re-enter.

Remember TfL made the decision that certain journeys are deemed via zone 1 and certain journeys are not.

If I use PAYG and touch in at Highbury and out at Ladbroke then it is up to TfL to program the system if they deem the correct journey to be changing at King's Cross (vic to H&C) and again at Paddington (H&C to certain NR platforms not involving passing a gateline.

Or do we now need to advise every oyster user to exit at an interchange station and re-enter?

You are completely missing Mojo's point.

What he was getting at is that touching in at the start and out at the end will see the correct fare charged. If the OP touched in but not out at the end, because the station at which he touched in is within the zones, he will not be charged anything, whether he touches on a pink reader or not. This means that if he had travelled via Zone 1 then he has not paid his fare, whereas had he touched out at his destination the correct fare would have been charged.

 

[34D]

You are completely missing Mojo's point.

What he was getting at is that touching in at the start and out at the end will see the correct fare charged. If the OP touched in but not out at the end, because the station at which he touched in is within the zones, he will not be charged anything, whether he touches on a pink reader or not. This means that if he had travelled via Zone 1 then he has not paid his fare, whereas had he touched out at his destination the correct fare would have been charged.

Oh yes. I apologise.

 

[Clip]

Hmm I'm not so sure, we have contractors/new shop staff sign in and out at my station as visitors but those permanently working in the shops on the platform get a security ID and don't sign in and out! I guess if there were to be a fire then tenants are responsible for themselves, similarly, passengers don't get role-called if there's a station evacuation!

I have no idea how Southern run their station but as I said being behind the barrier to me, means they should do and the station management will need to know from each tenants Fire Warden should there be an evac.

Thats a bit of a silly last sentence isnt it? Do you think I am not aware of that?

 

[Deerfold]

I have not heard of TfL holding interviews but know of a number of London Underground interviews. The purpose of the interview is to ask people for their side of the story and perhaps put forward some mitigation; just like when the police may call people in after an assault, for instance.

As LU is part of TfL it's not unreasonable for people to refer to these as TfL interviews, surely?

 

[Mojo]

As LU is part of TfL it's not unreasonable for people to refer to these as TfL interviews, surely?

TfL's Revenue and Prosecutions departments are separate from London Underground ones, and they have different policies, for instance London Underground very rarely accept settlements to keep a case out of court, whereas TfL accept these in most cases that the defendant offers one, for instance.

 

[Deerfold]

TfL's Revenue and Prosecutions departments are separate from London Underground ones, and they have different policies, for instance London Underground very rarely accept settlements to keep a case out of court, whereas TfL accept these in most cases that the defendant offers one, for instance.

But if someone refers to having an interview with TfL isn't it just being a smartarse saying "TfL doesn't do that - it must have been LU" - especially when TfL is trying to present itself as one organisation.

You can use your knowledge of these internal differences to help the OP of course.

 

[a729]

When I travel via zone 1, I always touch in and touch out because this is not covered by my weekly travel card. It's only when I donot travel via zone 1, I donot touch out my Oyster card.
Regards

What was the end result?

 

[BestWestern]

Presumably there is no formal obligation to attend one of these 'interviews'? In which case one is presumably perfectly entitled to advise TfL/LU or whoever to crack on with it and find their own bloody 'evidence'? All seems a tad heavyhanded to me, particularly when the Oyster card seems to carry a list of T&Cs harder to comprehend than a double-Dutch bible! Eeek.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Presumably there is no formal obligation to attend one of these 'interviews'? In which case one is presumably perfectly entitled to advise TfL/LU or whoever to crack on with it and find their own bloody 'evidence'?

That's correct.