Intermediate stations and season tickets

[maniacmartin]

I've had a few run-ins lately with gateline staff on London Overground, all relating to exiting at an intermediate station on a permitted route with a point to point season ticket. This is the shortest most obvious route for the ticket, and also the one that NRE brings up with no via points specified. In every case, I have been told that only Travelcards permit exiting at an intermediate station, and point to point seasons must be used for the whole permitted route. Their proof is that my ticket is cheaper than a Travelcard.

On one occasion I asked to inspect the NRCoC but was given a different document, and when I pressed I was told that it is only available for me to look at online on my own devices. The staff member (who was in the ticket office with no queue) wasn't prepared to bring it up on his computer. Overground twitter team sent me a PDF of the TfLCoC which is also the wrong document.

Writing to LO in the past about previous issues resulted in them replying with a letter that dodged the issues. Sadly, there appears to be nothing that can be done to force LO to deliver basic ticket training to their staff. I have to have the argument every time and always be let off 'just this once' and it is rather annoying. Where are the regulators when you need them?

</rant>

 

[yorkie]

Did London Travelwatch resolve the issue?

If it's been reported to them and they were unable to resolve it, I think the next step is to go to your MP...

 

[Fare-Cop]

I've had a few run-ins lately with gateline staff on London Overground, all relating to exiting at an intermediate station on a permitted route with a point to point season ticket. This is the shortest most obvious route for the ticket, and also the one that NRE brings up with no via points specified. In every case, I have been told that only Travelcards permit exiting at an intermediate route, and point to point seasons must be used for the whole permitted route. Their proof is that my ticket is cheaper than a Travelcard.

On one occasion I asked to inspect the NRCoC but was given a different document, and when I pressed I told that it is only available for me to look at online on my own devices. The the staff member (who was in the ticket office with no queue) wasn't prepared to bring it up on his computer. Overground twitter team sent me a PDF of the TfLCoC which is also the wrong document.

Writing to LO in the past about previous issues resulted in them replying with a letter that dodged the issues. Sadly, there appears to be nothing that can be done to force LO to deliver basic ticket training to their staff. I have to have the argument every time and always be let off 'just this once' and it is rather annoying. Where are the regulators when you need them?

</rant>

See page 26 in this document dated last week and until further notice:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/overground-ticket-and-travel-guide.pdf

Perhaps worth printing off the page and carrying with you although you shouldn't have to of course.

 

[Squaddie]

I've had a few run-ins lately with gateline staff on London Overground, all relating to exiting at an intermediate station on a permitted route with a point to point season ticket. This is the shortest most obvious route for the ticket, and also the one that NRE brings up with no via points specified.

Are you willing to tell us the names of the stations? You seem to have been quite careful in the wording of your comments, which makes me feel (probably without justification) that the validity of your journey might not be as straightforward as you say it is.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Dated 16 September 2014 (until further notice)

I think this is pretty unambiguous:

National Rail or London Overground Point-to-point season ticket

Validity

From 0001 on the start date and for any journey that starts before 0430 on the day after the expiry date shown.
Unlimited journeys between the stations shown on the ticket, including any stations in between.

Availability (see Note B)

Note B reads as follows:

B. The Oyster rail services in London map showing zones for rail travel can be seen at every London Overground station, together with a list of London Overground local fares from that station. A map showing the zones also appears at tfl.gov.uk/maps

 

[swt_passenger]

Often seems to me that with all the publicity emphasis suggesting LO are 'different' to the mainstream TOCs, that some staff members seem to have applied their own extreme interpretation of this, whereas the linked information in Fare-Cop's posts shows clearly that to all intents they really do run under the NR CofC just like any TOC. Perhaps training needs to emphasise the common ground as well as the differences.

(I always thought they should have retained the NR signage for a start, might have made a few people realise that they are still part of the whole network...)

As always, anyone needs to exercise caution when telling the man on the platform that he doesn't know the facts, they tend to go all defensive...

 

[Greenback]

Often seems to me that with all the publicity emphasis suggesting LO are 'different' to the mainstream TOCs, that some staff members seem to have applied their own extreme interpretation of this, whereas the linked information in Fare-Cop's posts shows clearly that to all intents they really do run under the NR CofC just like any TOC. Perhaps training needs to emphasise the common ground as well as the differences.

I think that may be a major cause of these sorts of difficulties. If new entrants are being trained that Overground is TfL not National Rail, then it's hardly surprising if their staff then apply a different set of rules.

As we see elsewhere, there are enough National Rail who either don't understand restrictions properly or are badly briefed and have no means of getting the right info for themselves, so to add in an extra set of complications is going to be asking for trouble.

(I always thought they should have retained the NR signage for a start, might have made a few people realise that they are still part of the whole network...)

I agree. A simple step, but it would help to reinforce in both passenger and employees minds that, regardless of the organisation responsible for the services, the conditions of carriage are those of National Rail.

As always, anyone needs to exercise caution when telling the man on the platform that he doesn't know the facts, they tend to go all defensive...

Quite! It's important not to lecture anyone in any customer facing role, even when they have made a mistake, but instead to politely enquire if their (the passenger) information is up to date. On the infrequent occasions that I encounter difficulties, I find that effective, if the staff member refuses to engage in a civilised discussion I'll take it up later rather than engage in a pointless argument, seeking redress as appropriate.

 

[maniacmartin]

Did London Travelwatch resolve the issue?

If it's been reported to them and they were unable to resolve it, I think the next step is to go to your MP...

I think it is probably not worth reporting to LTW as I have always eventually been 'let off'
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For those interested, here is what LOROL's Training Schedule is
Here are the Competencies Covered
Things we have collectively had trouble with, including Seat reservations, advance tickets and routeing do appear to be covered. the NRCoC is specifically mentioned (but the word Rail is missing...!) as point 3 and even the Manual is mentioned as point 4.

Whether this applies to all LO staff, or only non-agency staff I am not sure - my experience in stations is the staff don't seem to know about the 'content covered' here.

It looks to be a 5-week course. How does that compare to other TOCs?

 

[afyutr]

Does "disable ticketing" in "accurate and impartial retailing" cover the process of refusing to sell me tickets no matter what my colour, race or gender?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Quite! It's important not to lecture anyone in any customer facing role, even when they have made a mistake, but instead to politely enquire if their (the passenger) information is up to date.

Indeed. I agree.
Though alternative responses, which are equally supportive of the person's position, can be equally effective!

I strongly recommend avoiding any presumption that 'they' (the industry professional) have made a mistake, and 'you' (the mere customer/ passenger/ client) are correct.
There are ways of reaching desirable outcomes in a conflict, and telling the other person that they are wrong doesn't appear in my list of winning strategies.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Indeed. I agree.
Though alternative responses, which are equally supportive of the person's position, can be equally effective!

I strongly recommend avoiding any presumption that 'they' (the industry professional) have made a mistake, and 'you' (the mere customer/ passenger/ client) are correct.
There are ways of reaching desirable outcomes in a conflict, and telling the other person that they are wrong doesn't appear in my list of winning strategies.

Yes I agree and although I suggested carrying a copy of the confirmation of validity, simply thrusting it in the face of the staff member is almost certain to have a negative outcome.

Introducing it by saying something like: 'I'm not criticising you, perhaps there has been some local management difficulty in distributing updates do you think? I'm only going by the advertised note I was given last week.....' is much less likely to cause conflict.

Rail staff ( like those in many other industries ) are frequently sympathetic if you appear to recognise how difficult their job is and that maybe they don't always get the support that they need.

 

[Clip]

Often seems to me that with all the publicity emphasis suggesting LO are 'different' to the mainstream TOCs, that some staff members seem to have applied their own extreme interpretation of this, whereas the linked information in Fare-Cop's posts shows clearly that to all intents they really do run under the NR CofC just like any TOC. Perhaps training needs to emphasise the common ground as well as the differences.

Very much so especially when large amounts of their network is shared with other TOCs too.

I wonder why it has gone so awry with them on these issues.

 

[Greenback]

Indeed. I agree.
Though alternative responses, which are equally supportive of the person's position, can be equally effective!

I strongly recommend avoiding any presumption that 'they' (the industry professional) have made a mistake, and 'you' (the mere customer/ passenger/ client) are correct.
There are ways of reaching desirable outcomes in a conflict, and telling the other person that they are wrong doesn't appear in my list of winning strategies.

Yes, I agree, although there have been instances where I have known a staff member was wrong, as with the chap who wouldn't sell me a Valleys Day Ranger at Swansea because 'it can only be bought in the area'. But I digress, I would certainly never advocate a confrontational approach, I usually adopt a look and tone of confusion and ask for help in understanding where I was wrong.

On a number of occasions helpful rail staff have tried to explain and produce evidence only to realise, in so doing, that they are confused about something or have the wrong end of the stick.

One advantage I have is that when it comes to ticketing matters at least I can refer to my previous experience in the booking office and ask if something has changed!

 

[Squaddie]

The OP still hasn't told us which stations he's travelling between, which makes me think this might be a case of creative ticketing rather than a simple failure on the part of Overground staff to understand and apply the rules. (But I'm happy to be corrected).

 

[RJ]

The OP still hasn't told us which stations he's travelling between, which makes me think this might be a case of creative ticketing rather than a simple failure on the part of Overground staff to understand and apply the rules. (But I'm happy to be corrected).

I can only imagine that tickets between somewhere south of the river and north of the river are valid on the ELL so it's probably not that creative. Strange things happen with season tickets valid on the Overground anyway - they've been know to mysteriously disappear from the system, a lot of "Not Underground" tickets have had their prices seriously hiked or been removed and there appears to be some policy to reduce the amount of point to point seasons valid on the Overground. Given this, I don't begrudge manicmartin's reluctance to reveal the stations on the ticket.

Besides, the issue appears to be that the gateline assistant isn't aware that season tickets can be used at intermediate stations - I don't think the stations shown on the ticket are required to comment on the issue at hand.

 

[maniacmartin]

Gateline staff do not dispute the route. They only have an issue with breaking at an intermediate station.