Interference with Train Doors - What Would You Do ?

[Old Timer]

Last night I was travelling on a local suburban service in Birmingham.

We arrived at the station I was getting off at, and as I was walking through the car park, which is alongside the platform, the train started off and then suddenly stopped.

Two large "youths" appeared out of the gloom along the platform from the front of the train, and by the occurrence and a comment passed by one of them to his friend they had obviously either forced the doors or operated the emergency door release.

The whole thing was being treated as a big joke, but in actual fact it resulted in some delays whilst the Guard then had to go to the front of the train and reset everything before the train could move.

It was clear that this was not the first time and both youths were treating the whole thing as fun and basically didn't give a toss about any potential damage or inconvenience to any others.

Now I was very tempted to challenge them and call the BT Police, however one somewhat old man these days against two large youths who clearly hold little if any regard for others did rather change the dynamics of the situation.

To my great pesonal embarrassment and annoyance as a Railwayman, I did not feel that I could become involved as the risk to my personal safety was lower than 50%. I also wondered if :-
(a) The TOC would have been concerned enought to take action for Criminal Damage or interference with the doors which is a Railway Byelaw offence

(b) The BT Police would have taken effective action

I have to admit that I was very annoyed at what I perceived to be the fact that any intervention by myself or indeed the Guard would probably have resulted in some sort of violent response by people who basically didn't give a damn about anyone else.

I am still in many ways angry and ashamed that I did not challenge them, but in other ways I think it was for the best that I didn't bearing in mind another topic that is currently running.

Any views ?

 

[A60K]

I understand your position entirely. 40 years ago there's probably an evens chance they would have got a clip round the ear.

If either the train or the station have CCTV it might be worth reporting it, to see if they can be identified?

 

[NSEFAN]

A similar thing happened to a train that I was on a few years ago.

I was travelling from Aylesbury to Princes Risborough on DMU 121020. As the train was coming to a stop in Princes Risborough station, some youths tried to open the door, but the central door locking obviously stopped them. Confused by this, they then looked around the door for a way of opening it. They saw the red chain and mindlessly pulled it. The train was moving slowly at this point, so it stopped very quickly. The ding-dong noise for the door locking went off, and they promptly left the train.

The guard caught up with them though, and gave them a good ear bashing. If this had been later at night like in Old Timer's case, then it may not have been such a good idea to have a go at them. I don't think any guard likes the idea of being beaten up by yobs.

The youths then left the station. I don't know if they were ever caught up with for having misused the emergency alarm; I'd like to think something was done about it.

Old Timer, perhaps the guard reported it later, and they can be identified from station/on-train CCTV? Given the circumstances, it seems the guard did the most appropriate thing and had the train reset. Hopefully he reported it later.

If the train had been so badly damaged that it had to be taken out of service, then perhaps it would have been a different matter.

 

[Geezertronic]

The problem is these days there is mostly no point trying to do the right thing because you're liable to get some idiot starting a fight on you or something worse might happen like they try to escape over the railway line and get hit by a train

It sounds bad but I only get involved if an innocent is being hurt by these idiots - last time I did I had a few cuts and bruises but you should have seen the other guy

 

[amn140174]

Old Timer - Although these incidents are very annoying you did the right thing and let it go. Im sure all members of this forum would rather see what you have said above and going about your usual daily routine today than sending messages from a hospital bed or even worse that you could never comment on this forum again.

If it was upto me when these people are cought I would ASBO them from all public transport and make the scum walk everywhere for 5 years.

 

[First class]

Slightly off topic, but Merseyrail enforcement officers are apparently combating door misuse by operating in plain clothes waiting by train doors and when people attempt to board the train when the doors are closing, (a byelaw offence), they are PACED and receive a court summons and can receive a typical £1000 fine plus compensation to the TOC.

Merseyrail is a very good TOC at enforcing the byelaws, feet on seats, cycling on stations etc...

This is exactly how those who board a train dangerously should be treated.

 

[robby p]

I must admit a court summons and £1000 fine would be a bit harsh for just jumping on a train last second. Everybody has been in that position when their in a massive rush and need to board THAT train. I'm not making excuses for persistant offenders but it does happen to all of us. The most anything I find is when i'm trying to shut my doors and they are being held open by someone having a chat with someone on the train from the platform!

 

[CarterUSM]

I seen CCTV footage recently of a person running out a booking office when they heard the door alarms sounding and promptly sliding down into the cess. Luckily the guard was doing his job properly by watching his DOL's extinguishing and seen this happen. No injuries sustained apart from some scratches and bruises, though still had the cheek to put a claim in I believe. Thrown out though. most slips and falls I have seen involve running for trains. I used to do it myself but having witnessed this from the other side I never do so now. I probably wouldn't catch it anyway.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I don't think there is much to be ashamed about OT. I am in your position - I would not challenge them, as I wouldn't reckon my chances against those kind of people would be very much. Of course, we would all like to step in, but sometimes we have to say to ourselves that we cannot.

 

[trickyvegas]

I don't think there is much to be ashamed about OT. I am in your position - I would not challenge them, as I wouldn't reckon my chances against those kind of people would be very much. Of course, we would all like to step in, but sometimes we have to say to ourselves that we cannot.

I agree with this, if it involves stopping someone getting a kicking I would and have stepped in (Manchester Victoria one Friday night). Otherwise it's just not worth the possible consequences. It doesn't feel good though.

 

[ukrob]

Slightly off topic, but Merseyrail enforcement officers are apparently combating door misuse by operating in plain clothes waiting by train doors and when people attempt to board the train when the doors are closing, (a byelaw offence), they are PACED and receive a court summons and can receive a typical £1000 fine plus compensation to the TOC.

Merseyrail is a very good TOC at enforcing the byelaws, feet on seats, cycling on stations etc...

This is exactly how those who board a train dangerously should be treated.

If it were true, I'm sure it would be all over the news. They have far better things to be doing than that.

 

[First class]

If it were true, I'm sure it would be all over the news. They have far better things to be doing than that.

People have been ejected from the station for it though, I've witnessed it many times. There is always a 'settling in' period before zero tolerance.

Merseyrail tell Carlisle Security what they want enforcing.

 

[ukrob]

People have been ejected from the station for it though, I've witnessed it many times. There is always a 'settling in' period before zero tolerance.

I don't doubt that. But that is very different to a day in court and a 'typical' £1000 fine. We all know that would be in the press. Also incredibly difficult (indeed impossible without an admission) to prove that the passenger heard and ignored the hustle alarm (especially at busy stations) - therefore a waste of courts time.

 

[Mojo]

The maximum fine for breaching the railway byelaws is £1,000, so it's therefore impossible that the typical fine can be £1,000. If cases have even been brought about as a result of this, I'd imagine the typical fine would be in the region of £200, depending on circumstances.

 

[trickyvegas]

If it were true, I'm sure it would be all over the news. They have far better things to be doing than that.

It has in the case of feet on seats - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562141/Feet-on-seat-student-escapes-conviction.html

Shame the magistrate bottled, I hope Merseyrail keep their policy going as the state of some seats are appalling as a result of this and it must of some cost to the TOCs to maintain and replace them.

 

[ukrob]

It has in the case of feet on seats - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562141/Feet-on-seat-student-escapes-conviction.html

Shame the magistrate bottled, I hope Merseyrail keep their policy going as the state of some seats are appalling as a result of this and it must of some cost to the TOCs to maintain and replace them.

That is precisely my point

 

[142094]

Was on GC HST a couple of weeks back and two women had their feet on the seats. The guard didn't say anything but instead the guy who picks up the litter told both of them to not put their feet on the seats.

 

[truckman060473]

I remember at Burry Port station back in 1992, there were yobs hanging around the platform. when the train was about to leave, one of them would rush out and open a door. the guard had a hard time trying to stop this from happening. of course, this was before the fitting of newer safety doors which are electrically & mechanically locked by the switch that the guard operates

 

[HSTfan!!!]

in my personal experience, the byelaws are seldom enforced, which really is a shame, because many members of the public break them all too often and have no idea! Like going for a door on a locked/moving train, nothing gets my back up more than that, and they just don't seem to realise the seriousness of leaving a door on the catch for me. I dread to think some days what would happen if CDL were to fail

 

[trickyvegas]

That is precisely my point

Sorry - I sometimes fail to pick up irony on the interweb

 

[Dolive22]

I assume your bosses wouldn't be too happy, but if you work for the TOC you have power under the byelaws to sling them off railway property if they break the byelaws. You have to ask nicely, but if they don't leave you can bodily remove them. You also have to tell them what they did wrong. The byelaw is 24.2 if you want to try it. It's a pity you would get the sack.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Old Timer, I forgot to say, don't beat yourself up. You probably did the right thing. The local police will have no idea the disruption caused, so won't come out to deal with it, and BTP wouldn't get there in time to do anything. I doubt you would have got very far keeping them there, although I suppose if you had got beaten up the local force would at least have tried to find them. Doesn't really seem worth it to me, and I even tackle people who litter.

 

[the sniper]

I am still in many ways angry and ashamed that I did not challenge them, but in other ways I think it was for the best that I didn't bearing in mind another topic that is currently running.

There's no need to be ashamed about it OT, you did the sensible thing. It might be worth ringing in the incident to the BTP on 0800 40 50 40, but realistically, there is probably little that can be done now.

I had a similar incident a year or two back, some dodgy geezers around the age of 25 thought it'd be an idea to pull the emergency break handle as we came into the station, luckily though, they were so stupid they couldn't figure out how to pull it! Anyway, I just put the cover back on and told the guard when I got off. There's not much else a sensible person can do without carrying a weapon or being a black belt.

 

[Dolive22]

I'm actually about halfway to a black belt in one of the more practical martial arts, and I still prefer to practice the oriental art of scarpering. I'm also quite good at screaming and prevailing on strangers.

 

[Zamracene749]

Not worth getting involved.
You'd get no back up, and if it got violent the police will only care about any laws broken by whoever happens to be nearest, ie you.
Sad but true.

 

[SWT Driver]

You did right mate, if you were travelling with a few friends then fine say something, but on your own it REALLY isnt worth the risk.
The fact you WANTED to say something shows that you still care about these things but personal safety has to be number 1!
What would have happened if you said something, the train then moved off and they decided, as it was 2 onto 1, to "teach you some respect", we all know how cowardly this lot are.

 

[the sniper]

Not worth getting involved.
You'd get no back up, and if it got violent the police will only care about any laws broken by whoever happens to be nearest, ie you.
Sad but true.

You don't seriously believe that, do you...?

 

[defitzi]

de fitzi: Old Timer-you DID the right thing. These days, no one is safe from thugs who rob, maim and kill without provocation:just for the kicks they get from beating anyone. As long as the punishment is a slap on the wrist, now of us are safearticularly us old-timers! I need to use a stick and I carry a Blackthorn stick -a very useful "defensive" weapon I was given years ago by a retired senior police officer-Irish police officers all carried Blackthorns- with the words:" always aim for the head".
I've used recently here in Ireland, when attacked without reason and it probably saved my life and my friends.
But if I had I used a walking stick in the UK to beat-off thugs, I would probably have been jailed!
Those thugs viciously and without ANY provocation at all, attacked my disabled 79 year old companion, and myself (73, also disabled but fairly active betimes. I managed to cut two of the louts and hold them in a corner until police arrived and arrested them.
In England, had I hit them with my stick, they would no doubt be let off as "victims", with some publicity-seeking magistrate ranting about "taking the law into....."
In Ireland, the pair got ten years. But my friend is dead, and there is no doubt his fear contributed to his death soon afterwards. But in the UK, I woujld try and get away because unless I could retaliate if attacked, a) I'd likely be injured if not killed and b) whatever happened, I'm sure from reading the papers and media about how things are, it would surely be me who would be blamed if I used my stick as a defence.
But they attacked without provocation and left me no choice but defence-had it been otherwise I would have walked away without interfering as loine as no other person was in danger.
At our age, it is better stay safe and alive and enjoy our pensions.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I am still in many ways angry and ashamed that I did not challenge them, but in other ways I think it was for the best that I didn't bearing in mind another topic that is currently running.

Any views ?

Correct course of action; just such a shame that the country is in such a state that we have to say that!

I've found that this type of problem is usually down to kids messing about. When driving DOO, I used to make an announcement to the effect that "Your journey home is being held up by some kids messing about with the doors". When you've got a train full of people that want to go home after a hard day at work, they will usually take care of this problem for you, though I can see that this may have been a slightly different situation.

Worth the driver making a report though, as if a TOC gets repeated problems in certain areas, they have been known to work with the BTP to try and deal with it. I'm thinking of one gang of lads that used to make a pain of themselves every Sunday between a couple of stations in the leafy suburbs. Plainclothes BTP just spent an afternoon riding up and down, until their paths crossed....

 

[the sniper]

I'm sure from reading the papers and media about how things are[...]

Don't believe everything you read in the papers.

In your case defitzi, there is very little chance that you'd have any problems with the Police in the UK under those circumstances. People in this country have been jailed for chasing down burglars and beating them until they were left brain damaged, the tabloid papers then like to put some spin on these stories and churn them out as 'brave home owner arrested for protecting their family'. More often then not these people will then go on to get as little as a suspended sentence, if any punishment whatsoever. The papers don't make such a big fuss when that happens though, as it doesn't fit their agenda to 'outrage' their readers and make everyone thoroughly miserable!

EDIT:

Correct course of action; just such a shame that the country is in such a state that we have to say that!

Do you think there are many places in the western world where any different course of action would be any safer? If I were in a suburban area in the Netherlands, Italy, Ireland, France or Germany, I doubt I'd feel any safer to confront these kind of people there then if I were in the UK.

 

[142094]

Going back to interference with train doors, this is quite common on the TW Metro. The doors can be easily pushed back when they are closing, and there isn't much the staff can do about it (since its mostly just the driver all the time). I also admit to having done this a couple of times when I have ran for the train and the doors are just shutting. In hindsight not the best thing to do.