Interesting update on the Whitby line

[Irascible]

You could, theoretically, tunnel it over GSM, but that isn't the low cost solution "managing radio frequencies" is . I'll be interested to see what is actually installed here.

 

[Bald Rick]

It needn't be an issue. The loss of the RETB radio frequencies in Scotland was managed by renewing the radio infrastructure and using a different sub-band of the Band III frequency spectrum.

I understood that the frequencies concerned were reallocated to Dutch digital Tv (or radio), and that Scotland was far enough away that it wasnt a problem for interference. Suffolk was obviously a problem. If the solution was just changing the infrastrucutre, then why didnt East Suffolk have that done ?

 

[Harpo]

Correct, RETB doesn't require track circuits or axle counters. ETCS does require axle counters, as fiited all along the Cambrian. The much vaunted level 3, which would do away with them, hasn't yet come to anything, except on a few metro lines, due to practical issues with train position reporting and proof of train completeness.

Quite. ‘L3’ has been airware for more than a decade. Didn’t the Swedes implement an L3 without proof of train complete?

For a UK single line system with non-dynamic passing places (i.e. trains stop at every passing point) I’d assume that a manual ‘train complete’ could be overlaid on L3??

 

[Railsigns]

I understood that the frequencies concerned were reallocated to Dutch digital Tv (or radio), and that Scotland was far enough away that it wasnt a problem for interference. Suffolk was obviously a problem. If the solution was just changing the infrastrucutre, then why didnt East Suffolk have that done ?

The former RETB radio frequencies were reallocated for use by digital TV throughout Europe at the end of 2015. The approach taken in Scotland was to move the radio frequencies to a different sub-band and undertake renewals to extend the life of RETB. The RETB on the East Suffolk Line couldn't have handled the hourly service now running on that line, so it was resignalled conventionally with TCB.

 

[30907]

NYMR services would need to be included in the pattern. Presumably part of the funding would enable the two services to follow eachother in and out of Whitby.

It hadnt occurred to me before, but RETB could be configured to allow this, making it much easier to timetable the increased service.

I gather that retb signalling is to be used,the hand operated points at Grosmont and Whitby will be mechanised and the bay at Battersby reinstated. Nunthorpe box will be retained and,as stated,up to 8 return journeys introduced. The preparatory work to begin in 2025.

That all makes sense - presumably Glaisdale too!

I'm sure there was some talk of by-passing Battersby Junction altogether with a curve at one point, but this always seemed like overkill to me.

Yes there was, it would have knocked 10min off the journey and saved on signalling costs (Battersby of course has real lights on sticks).

BTW the 1982 t/t has 7 trains all year plus a dated extra, 2-hourly but a 3-hour gap in the afternoon to fit with the school times. Most crossings are at Battersby with tight turnarounds at Whitby - I wonder how that worked? No evening train.

 

[ainsworth74]

BTW the 1982 t/t has 7 trains all year plus a dated extra, 2-hourly but a 3-hour gap in the afternoon to fit with the school times. Most crossings are at Battersby with tight turnarounds at Whitby - I wonder how that worked?

I think Battersby still had the bay platform in 1982 so it was a bit more flexible, wasn't that a removed in the mid/late 80s?

 

[Ploughman]

Is RETB still in use on the Ravenglass and Eskdale in the Lake District?
How do they manage Spares, Repairs and New?

 

[Railsigns]

Is RETB still in use on the Ravenglass and Eskdale in the Lake District?
How do they manage Spares, Repairs and New?

The Ravenglass & Eskdale has a system of issuing verbal movement authorities by radio, but RETB it is not.

 

[30907]

I think Battersby still had the bay platform in 1982 so it was a bit more flexible, wasn't that a removed in the mid/late 80s?

It went in conjunction with transferring the oversight of signalling to Nunthorpe.

 

[Bald Rick]

The RETB on the East Suffolk Line couldn't have handled the hourly service now running on that line, so it was resignalled conventionally with TCB.

The hourly service on the East Suffolk was a by product of the resignalling, and not the reason it was done.

 

[yorksrob]

I think Battersby still had the bay platform in 1982 so it was a bit more flexible, wasn't that a removed in the mid/late 80s?

I think it still had a signal box then as well.

 

[timj]

I thought the idea of improved infrastructure / services on the Esk Valley Line was something that came up about 5-7 years ago but it was decided a conveyor / tunnel would be used for the mineral traffic so it got kyboshed. Is this just that old news dragged up again by mistake or is it something genuinely new?!

 

[Babybirdrobin]

the fright flow

How scary are the items being carried?
I’ll get my coat now

 

[simonw]

I thought the idea of improved infrastructure / services on the Esk Valley Line was something that came up about 5-7 years ago but it was decided a conveyor / tunnel would be used for the mineral traffic so it got kyboshed. Is this just that old news dragged up again by mistake or is it something genuinely new?!

The tunnel will be used, if the mine gets going. In return for permission to build the tunnel, money was promised to be used to enhance the railway. It is not the intention to use the railway for the mineral traffic.

 

[snowball]

How scary are the items being carried?
I’ll get my coat now

Joke already made in #6.

 

[Babybirdrobin]

Joke already made in #6.

That’s what I get for not scanning the thread first

 

[bearhugger]

I've just popped over to James Cook station as this thread reminded me I'd seen a disruption notice somewhere about trains not running soon. The Middlesbrough - Whitby line is closed between Nunthorpe & Whitby from Monday 9th to Thursday 12th September with a replacement bus service in operation. I hope there is signs up at the intermediate stations as there are plenty of schoolkids use the service, and buses generally take longer than the train in my experience on this route.
The reason I'm posting this is I'm sure I've seen somewhere that track replacement is the work that will be carried out, & that the money from the mine was supposed to be used to install some passing loops & other bits of infrastructure to help make the proposed 8 trains a day a reality.
As a local to the line, 8 trains a day on a roughly 2 hour frequency really is long overdue.



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I think Battersby still had the bay platform in 1982 so it was a bit more flexible, wasn't that a removed in the mid/late 80s?

The bay is still there, but beyond the end of the platform where the water tower is there is some cabinets on the lineside which would need shifting. New track & buffer stop would be the easy part of that job. Another possibility for Battersby is to bring the other platform that the other side of what is currently the runaround loop back into action. How much that would cost to get the platform surface up to scratch I've no idea & I'm sure there would be some sort of cost analysis for both projects need doing.

 

[Skipness]

I've just popped over to James Cook station as this thread reminded me I'd seen a disruption notice somewhere about trains not running soon. The Middlesbrough - Whitby line is closed between Nunthorpe & Whitby from Monday 9th to Thursday 12th September with a replacement bus service in operation. I hope there is signs up at the intermediate stations as there are plenty of schoolkids use the service, and buses generally take longer than the train in my experience on this route.
The reason I'm posting this is I'm sure I've seen somewhere that track replacement is the work that will be carried out, & that the money from the mine was supposed to be used to install some passing loops & other bits of infrastructure to help make the proposed 8 trains a day a reality.
As a local to the line, 8 trains a day on a roughly 2 hour frequency really is long overdue.

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2024 ==


The bay is still there, but beyond the end of the platform where the water tower is there is some cabinets on the lineside which would need shifting. New track & buffer stop would be the easy part of that job. Another possibility for Battersby is to bring the other platform that the other side of what is currently the runaround loop back into action. How much that would cost to get the platform surface up to scratch I've no idea & I'm sure there would be some sort of cost analysis for both projects need doing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2024 ==

One problem with operating the rrb next week will be the closure of the bridge over the River at Grosmont as a result of the damage caused by the bus recently.

 

[bearhugger]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2024 ==

One problem with operating the rrb next week will be the closure of the bridge over the River at Grosmont as a result of the damage caused by the bus recently.

Yes, that closure cuts off that side of the village! it's a long way round to come into the village from the other side. I'd forgotten that was still closed. not a pleasant journey for those that need to make it!

 

[Meerkat]

Would an island of RETB really be cheaper than axle counters and signals?
How many units would need fitting, and how many drivers would need training?

 

[30907]

Would an island of RETB really be cheaper than axle counters and signals?
How many units would need fitting, and how many drivers would need training?

Compared with all those signals (around 25 if you can't use fixed distants!) - interesting question.

 

[Ploughman]

Do we know what the works are and where?

 

[Kingston Dan]

Tunneling for a conveyor is somewhat cheaper than tunelling for a railway. Much smaller cross section (cheaper TBM; much cheaper materials in; much, much, cheaper to deal with materials out); no need to provide heavy duty ventilation, no need to provide regular escape shafts that can accommodate a couple of thousand people, no need to have an alignment suited to all the above plus passenger comfort. The operational costs will be far, far cheaper than a railway, and it will be far more reliable.

As someone who is one of the 1,000 plus people made redundant on the Woodsmith mine project I can say the tunnel is part of its planning permission. As the site is in the National Park it only got permission if it could be constructed with minimum visual impact, so a mineral transport tunnel was pretty much the only way to get product off the site when operational. The TBM just broke the record for the longest single bore at c29km and it has two interim shafts at Lockwood Beck and Ladycross (once complete the tunnel will be 37km). Despite the slow down of construction the TBM will continue to bore until it reaches the site as there's no other way to get it out. It does include a service railway - but the aim is to provide a continuous conveyer for the mineral if the mine ever opens.

 

[darloscott]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2024 ==

One problem with operating the rrb next week will be the closure of the bridge over the River at Grosmont as a result of the damage caused by the bus recently.

Yes and they’ve not timetabled for it so it will be a complete mess… the timetable is already pretty fantasy anyway without a huge diversion…! How a bus gets between Danby & Castleton in 2 mins I have no idea, it takes at least 8.

 

[Bald Rick]

As someone who is one of the 1,000 plus people made redundant on the Woodsmith mine project …

Sorry to hear that.

 

[Kingston Dan]

Sorry to hear that.

Thanks.

 

[Notabene]

Are there plans to significantly raise line speeds? I have the 1984 timetable somewhere and I'll upload it here soon when I find it.

TT added for 84

 

[A S Leib]

Esk Valley Train Service Deemed "Worst in the Country"

A new report has revealed that the Whitby to Middlesbrough train service is the worst in the country, despite a 49% increase in ridership since 2005.

The report, titled "A New Beginning" and prepared by transport consultants Stantec, highlights the inadequate service along the Esk Valley line, which it says fails to meet the needs of commuters, tourists, and residents.

The report attributes the current state of the Esk Valley line to a "resource-led approach" adopted in the late 20th century. Cost-saving measures implemented in the 1980s and early 1990s resulted in significant service reductions, including a 50% cut in 1991, which the report deems "a major mistake".

The report says that the limited service, with only five daily round trips between Whitby and Middlesbrough, has had a detrimental impact on the local communities and the economy. The report echoes the concerns raised by the Commons Transport Committee and the Lords Committee on Coastal Deprivation, stating that the poor train service hinders tourism and economic growth in the region.

The report also highlights that the train serves as a "local bus" for many Esk Valley villages with no other public transport options.

While the report paints a bleak picture of the current situation, it also offers potential solutions. Crucially, there is £7 million of ring-fenced private sector funding, awarded eight years ago for infrastructure improvements, that remains "largely unspent".

The report outlines several "quick wins" that could be achieved with this funding, including:

• Increased Service Frequency: Adding morning and midday services, as well as more trains on Sundays, which have seen a surge in passenger numbers.
• Reduced Line Occupation: Minimizing delays caused by the heritage North Yorkshire Moors Railway, which shares the line.
• Improved Infrastructure: Reinstatement of the second platform at Battersby station to facilitate crossing trains.

The Esk Valley Railway Development Company (EVRDC), a designated Community Rail Partnership, commissioned the Stantec report and is urging immediate action to implement these "quick wins".

The report also proposes a long-term vision for the Esk Valley line, including exploring the construction of a new curve at Battersby to reduce journey times by up to 10 minutes.Replacing the “restrictive Victorian Token signalling” is also recommended which the report says could “more than double the current services, but Network Rail says nothing is planned until the 2030s”.

The EVRDC is now seeking support from local authorities and officials to push for the release of the unspent funding and the implementation of both short-term and long-term improvements to revitalize the Esk Valley line.

The Community Rail Partnership is also seeking support for early action from both North Yorkshire Mayor David Skaith and new Scarborough and Whitby MP Alison Hume.

The report will be discussed at a meeting of North Yorkshire Council's Scarborough and Whitby Area Committee on Thursday.

The full report can be found at www.eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/A-New-Beginning-Esk-Valley-Railway.pdf

 

[yorksrob]

Esk Valley Train Service Deemed "Worst in the Country"

I spotted this in Modern Railways but hadn't had the chance to post it yet.

It's good to see the report putting pressure on the powers that be to do something about it.

 

[yorksrob]

Excellent article from Modern Railways November, by Alan Williams detailing the travails of the local users group.

I disagree with the view on the reversing Beeching policy (just because some councils are incapable of progressing some projects, doesnt mean that others shouldn't be progressed), he is spot on, on the obfuscation and neglect of the improvement of the Whitby line, even while people have been working on attracting the funding.

Fortunately, things seem to be improving and the involvement of the local Mayor seems to have put some rockets up some bottoms.

I can't really quote a paper press article, however the title of the article is:

"How not to restore your railway - Finding funding is hard, but getting it used proves to be even harder"