Intercontinental High Speed Rail

[quantinghome]

China is currently demonstrating the potential for very long high speed lines, the record currently being Beijing to Hong Kong at over 2000km. It also boasts the highest speed for a rail service, now at over 300km/h.

Given the urgent need to eliminate sources of CO2 emissions, and the lack of renewable alternatives to jet fuel, using current technology on an intercontinental scale, a Europe to China high speed rail line could be built. It would be 8000km long and take around 30 hours end to end. That's setting off in a morning and arriving the afternoon of the following day. To me that doesn't sound that bad compared to flying.

What's not to like?

 

[randyrippley]

What's not to like?

The mega-size of the toilet retention tanks could be a problem

 

[tasky]

Russia and China claim to be building such a thing, though China has a much better track record of actually delivering such projects

 

[PTR 444]

If such a service existed, it would need to make quite a few stops to allow for change of drivers.

The OP claims that a journey of 8000km would take 30 hours if it was non-stop. To make this a reality, it would need to be possible to travel a distance of at least 266km in an hour, equivalent to the distance between London and Manchester. This would be more than possible if a speed of 300km is maintained throughout, therefore some idling at a select few stations would be acceptable if the 30 hour target is to be met.

Dividing the journey into six approximate five-hour runs would probably be the most acceptable and logical way of going about it. For a hypothetical high-speed line taking the direct route between London and Beijing via Europe and Russia, you would be looking at intermediate stops in Warsaw, Moscow, Chelyabinsk, Novosibirsk and Ulan Bator.

 

[MarkyT]

The mega-size of the toilet retention tanks could be a problem

I think some companies are working on systems that partly process the effluent on-board, so the storage requirements would be reduced. Discharge actually at station platforms served en route might be a possibility.

Russia and China claim to be building such a thing, though China has a much better track record of actually delivering such projects

I may be wrong but I don't think Russia has built any dedicated high speed infrastructure so far. A major new high speed east-west railway in Russia would probably make more sense built to broad gauge, so the trunk could also host through service to other existing lines. Making it standard gauge only for compatibility with European and Chinese infrastructure would make it far less useful domestically. Dual gauge is not realistic as Russian is too close to standard to allow two conventional rails to be located next to each other on one side; their flat bottom feet interfere with each other. Perhaps some special new rail design might be devised to allow this, or gauge changing trains used for domestic traffic on the new line.

If such a service existed, it would need to make quite a few stops to allow for change of drivers. The OP claims that a journey of 8000km would take 30 hours if it was non-stop. To make this a reality, it would need to be possible to travel a distance of at least 266km in an hour, equivalent to the distance between London and Manchester. This would be more than possible if a speed of 300km is maintained throughout, therefore some idling at a select few stations would be acceptable if the 30 hour target is to be met. Dividing the journey into six approximate five-hour runs would probably be the most acceptable and logical way of going about it. For a hypothetical high-speed line taking the direct route between London and Beijing via Europe and Russia, you would be looking at intermediate stops in Warsaw, Moscow, Chelyabinsk, Novosibirsk and Ulan Bator.

Some stops en route are logical to make such a very long distance service more economic. For any individual segment that still exceeded maximum hours, the crew might be relieved in motion by staff travelling and resting in the passenger accommodation.

 

[HSTEd]

It would be 8000km long and take around 30 hours end to end. That's setting off in a morning and arriving the afternoon of the following day. To me that doesn't sound that bad compared to flying.

I don't imagine there is much demand for travel from Europe to Central Asia, simply because of extraordinarily low population density.
So most trains could run through, at which point average speed becomes essentially the line speed.

So at 320km/h you would take 25 hours to traverse 8000km.
If you could manage the 350km/h used on LGV Est, you could do it in about 23 hours.

It is worth noting however, that if you were to adopt the technology from the Chuo Shinkansen, and travel at 505km/h, you could manage it in 16 hours.

the speed increases make a big difference here.

 

[Chester1]

The cost to build and to travel would be insane. Sleeper trains are in a steep decline too. Long haul is a relatively small part of aviation's Co2 emissions because although the journeys are longer they are much smaller in number. Hybrid and then fully electric planes for short haul journeys are the nearest things to a silver bullet for aviation emissions.

 

[PTR 444]

It is worth noting however, that if you were to adopt the technology from the Chuo Shinkansen, and travel at 505km/h, you could manage it in 16 hours.

the speed increases make a big difference here.

Just imagine if the whole of America had a system like this. How it would revolutionise travel with 12-hour one-seat journeys between Downtown New York and LA.

 

[MarkyT]

The cost to build and to travel would be insane. Sleeper trains are in a steep decline too. Long haul is a relatively small part of aviation's Co2 emissions because although the journeys are longer they are much smaller in number. Hybrid and then fully electric planes for short haul journeys are the nearest things to a silver bullet for aviation emissions.

It is true that sleepers have been in long term decline for decades, especially in western Europe, but even there a resurgence is being experienced. Russia and other former Soviet states never lost routes and they remain popular. China runs long haul beds that use their high speed networks in places, although they are quite slow compared to day trains on the same routes, presumably to ensure passengers get a suitably long sleep, and possibly to help with ride quality. I think domestic flights that do not cross the sea should be discouraged vigorously in favour of other modes that are more easily decarbonised. How about hydrogen fuel cells for electric aircraft?

 

[squizzler]

If such a service existed, it would need to make quite a few stops to allow for change of drivers.

Can't they use a Gresley style corridor tender?

 

[MarkyT]

Can't they use a Gresley style corridor tender?

I thought the same for the crew change in motion. I think most modern high speed trains have access to the cab from the passenger saloons, possibly through a power car.

 

[Chester1]

It is true that sleepers have been in long term decline for decades, especially in western Europe, but even there a resurgence is being experienced. Russia and other former Soviet states never lost routes and they remain popular. China runs long haul beds that use their high speed networks in places, although they are quite slow compared to day trains on the same routes, presumably to ensure passengers get a suitably long sleep, and possibly to help with ride quality. I think domestic flights that do not cross the sea should be discouraged vigorously in favour of other modes that are more easily decarbonised. How about hydrogen fuel cells for electric aircraft?

I think a resurgence is overstating things a bit! OBB have invested money but that is against the back drop of DB cutting all sleeper services 3 years ago. The investment in the UK is just for maintaining the existing services for the longer term. France has cancelled most services in the last 5 years. Sweden may invest more. That is about it within western and central Europe. Few people are prepared to spend more time and money taking a train that they might not be able to sleep properly on. Highspeed rail travel should be improved to out compete flying on journeys under 500 miles.

Aviation is only 2-3% of global emissions and more efficient planes have slowed aviation emissions growth. There are plenty of options to reduce emissions and make significant progress towards a zero carbon economy that do not drop living standards. The majority of people would prefer to make other sacrifices than lose the ability to regularly have foreign holidays at an affordable price. Aviation taxes should be increased but there is a limit before its electoral suicide. I don't eat meat but I don't support banning it (which would cut emissions vastly more than ending all air travel). That is the kind of reaction there would be if there was a serious attempt to reduce aviation emissions by limiting number of plane services by law.

I don't know about Boeing but Airbus is focusing on hybrids not hydrogen. The aim is for the A320 neo replacement in early 2030s to be a hybrid and then work their way up by model size.

 

[HSTEd]

Aviation is only 2-3% of global emissions and more efficient planes have slowed aviation emissions growth. There are plenty of options to reduce emissions and make significant progress towards a zero carbon economy that do not drop living standards. The majority of people would prefer to make other sacrifices than lose the ability to regularly have foreign holidays at an affordable price. Aviation taxes should be increased but there is a limit before its electoral suicide. I don't eat meat but I don't support banning it (which would cut emissions vastly more than ending all air travel). That is the kind of reaction there would be if there was a serious attempt to reduce aviation emissions by limiting number of plane services by law.

Recent work done by my research group came to the conclusion than the bulk of the population would prefer to abandon air travel than to abandon regular meat consumption.
Although this was a surprise to many of my colleagues, we have to remember that a large portion of the population doesn't take regular holidays by plane because they can't even afford to travel abroad.

I would also be extremely skeptical that significant electric airliners will be with us any time soon.
Surface transport is what we got, and we have to try and reduce travel times and most importantly costs.

 

[Chester1]

Recent work done by my research group came to the conclusion than the bulk of the population would prefer to abandon air travel than to abandon regular meat consumption.
Although this was a surprise to many of my colleagues, we have to remember that a large portion of the population doesn't take regular holidays by plane because they can't even afford to travel abroad.

I would also be extremely skeptical that significant electric airliners will be with us any time soon.
Surface transport is what we got, and we have to try and reduce travel times and most importantly costs.

Taxes should be increased on everything that makes a significant contributions and people should make the choices they want. I fly regularly but I would vote against any party that tried to cut it drastically while allowing other sectors of the economy to carry on more or less unchanged. As a vegetarian and someone who doesn't drive I have a lower carbon life than average, even after factoring in flights. If I could board a sleeper train in Northern England and travel to southern Spain or Southern Italy within 12 hours and for £100 each way I would happily do so.

 

[randyrippley]

Can't they use a Gresley style corridor tender?

But on a modern railway who needs drivers?

 

[Lucan]

Sleeper trains are in a steep decline too.

They are in decline because long distance domestic trains have become faster. But this thread is about far longer (distance and time) rail journeys where there would be a demand for sleepers again (if there is a demand for the service at all).

 

[Chester1]

They are in decline because long distance domestic trains have become faster. But this thread is about far longer (distance and time) rail journeys where there would be a demand for sleepers again (if there is a demand for the service at all).

High speed services have been a factor in the decline of sleepers but so has air travel. If I could do London to Beijing return for £500 on a 36 hour sleeper service I would be very tempted but I would be a) to reduce my carbon footprint and b) as a train enthusiast. Most people would only care about the former and probably not enough to spend an extra day each way traveling. There a variety of political problems preventing trans continental high speed services from Europe. Africa and Middle East are non starters due to security and illegal immigration. Most european countries have an extremely bad relationship with Russia and visas would be required to transit.

Any sleeper journey that might appeal to the average person would be limited to be able to depart after work and arrive shortly after breakfast. Earlier this year someone who works in the rail industry posted a detailed guess of the cost per passenger of a UK to Spain sleeper. It was astronomical and would need to be trebled for intercontinental journeys.

 

[HSTEd]

Most european countries have an extremely bad relationship with Russia and visas would be required to transit.

There have been examples of visas not being required, for transit through, but not to, a state.

The political agreement that would be a sine qua non for such a scheme would almost certainly include provisions on corridor trains.

 

[class26]

There have been examples of visas not being required, for transit through, but not to, a state.

The political agreement that would be a sine qua non for such a scheme would almost certainly include provisions on corridor trains.

And a little known fact but you can enter Russia at St Petersburg by ferry from Helsinki and stay for 72 hours WITHOUT a visa. This shows it can be done where there is a will and I would hope that if billions had been pumped into a trans continental line the visa situation would have been discussed at the beginning.
FYI the actual reason in this case at St Petersburg is that a close relation of Putin owns the said ferry company !

 

[quantinghome]

Interesting to see that China's high speed rail network already stretches to Urumqi. Russia is planning to build a new line from Moscow to Kazan with China supplying some funding and a view to it forming part of a future high speed route from China to Moscow.

 

[PolyDriver]

Sounds like the trip of a lifetime.

 

[TRAX]

I don't imagine there is much demand for travel from Europe to Central Asia, simply because of extraordinarily low population density.
So most trains could run through, at which point average speed becomes essentially the line speed.

So at 320km/h you would take 25 hours to traverse 8000km.
If you could manage the 350km/h used on LGV Est, you could do it in about 23 hours.

It is worth noting however, that if you were to adopt the technology from the Chuo Shinkansen, and travel at 505km/h, you could manage it in 16 hours.

the speed increases make a big difference here.

320 is the speed on the LGV Est.

 

[Aictos]

And a little known fact but you can enter Russia at St Petersburg by ferry from Helsinki and stay for 72 hours WITHOUT a visa. This shows it can be done where there is a will and I would hope that if billions had been pumped into a trans continental line the visa situation would have been discussed at the beginning.
FYI the actual reason in this case at St Petersburg is that a close relation of Putin owns the said ferry company !

However it is actually classed as a tour and you need to book with the ferry company who arranges the travel etc...

https://stpeterline.com/visa-free-rule

According to the law a passenger must arrive at the port of St. Petersburg onboard a ferry of MOBY SPL LIMITED company and leave in the same manner, be part of organised excursion group (City Bus Tour in this case) and comply with the rule of no longer than 72-hour stay. 72 hours period begins for the moment of crossing border control.

However back to HSR across continentals, I can't see People's Republic of China to Europe via Russia being attractive yes I can see more HSR lines in People's Republic of China being built but 1. People's Republic of China is massive and 2. the population shows there is a need for it.

 

[Chester1]

Interesting to see that China's high speed rail network already stretches to Urumqi. Russia is planning to build a new line from Moscow to Kazan with China supplying some funding and a view to it forming part of a future high speed route from China to Moscow.

Its only 125mph or less between Lanzhou and Urumqi and takes 12 hours. While its a huge upgrade it isn't really highspeed. Moscow-Kazan hasn't got started yet and may never do at the current rate. China and Russia have a great plan on paper but thats about it. The real money is in a freight network between Europe and China.

 

[tasky]

Beijing–Ürümqi is currently two trains and a total of 18+ hours travelling, so actually technically doable in a day, (6am until midnight, say) though I'm not sure how the connections work out.

Ürümqi to Lanzhou is 11 hours 30 minutes. Then Lanzhou to Beijing, and that journey in itself is 7.5 hours. This line has a top speed of 350km/h.

Russia claims Moscow-Kazan will be 3 hours 20 minutes when that railway is done, scheduled for 2023. The design speed is 360km/h, like HS2.

Kazan–Ürümqi is another 3,000km as the crow flies – a distance of a similar order to Beijing–Ürümqi again.

If it ever gets done there would probably be a break of gauge given Moscow-Kazan is planned to be Russian gauge and China builds its lines standard gauge.

There are apparently two routes under consideration – either through Kazakhstan, or Russia's mountainous Altai region, which just about borders China. Given China's foreign policy of trying to build high speed rail to its neighbours it's not impossible that we might see a connection from Kazakhstan's largest city Almaty to the Chinese network as the next step.

The obvious and probably only possible domestic axis within Kazakhstan is between Almaty and Astana, the country's capital, via Karaganda, the fourth largest city. A similar project was proposed previously, but postponed in 2013 because of costs and doubtful business case. It would have been Russian gauge and used western technology, I think Talgo was building the trains. Perhaps China might present an alternative plan.

Then, getting extremely pie in the sky, I suppose you could connect Astana to Kazan via Chelyabinsk and Ufa, both Russian cities with a population of over one million that are vaguely on the way. But given the Chinese (the only country that seems capable of building wildly optimistic lines like this) are no longer directly involved at this point the chances of it happening look pretty low, unless there's a step-change in Russian high-speed rail investment.

Nice to consider though