Interconnectors have changed direction

[Foxhunter]

Looking at any of the various online UK National Electrcity Grid monitors it is notable that some of the the Channel and North Sea interconnectors now usually send electricity to continental Europe, whereas for several years they predomintly operated to supply the UK. This happens even on days when there is little wind or solar energy - I'm guessing the owners of CCGT plants are experiencing an unforecast increase in operating days.

What I've picked up from the press is that UK gas spot prices are 'low' due to LPG shipments into Milford Haven; the gas pipelines are pumping as much as possible into continental Europe to store for winter usage, still leaving a gas surplus that is being burnt to send as electricity to continental Europe, in turn permitting other gas supply there to be stored.

Yes?

If so, is anyone able to say if this has all come about through a market price mechanism, or has there been some form of agreement between countries? Are there other significant factors e.g. nuclear plant summer maintenance.

Just interested, not venturing any suggestion of right or wrong.

 

[mikeg]

It's fairly normal on the gas front given we don't have much storage capacity. The especially high price of gas also means that in addition to exporting our gas in the summer (and massively importing during the winter), we can burn it to generate electricity and sell the electricity abroad, as you say. There's also exchange rates, at the height of the great recession when the pound nearly reached parity with the euro, this also happened. As it makes UK generation (traded in pounds) look cheap compared to continental generation (euros).

 

[MotCO]

Given that Europe presumably needs electricity, does this allow the UK to take the moral high ground if we need electricity or gas during the winter, when there may be shortages everywhere.

 

[brad465]

France are running maintenance of a number of their aging Nuclear reactors at the moment, so they've gone for notable net exporter to net importer, with the UK one such source.

 

[Bald Rick]

France has a number of Nukes ‘in maintenance’ (for which you can read ‘in trouble’) and has done for nearly a year. EDF is also affected by strike action which is reducing their output across the board.


Seprately we have proportionally much more Gas terminal capacity than most of Europe, and the ability to convert it to electricity and export that to Europe. Since Putin invaded Ukraine triggered the significant rise in Gas prices, and we had some long held contracts (principally with Qatar and Norway, as well as our own supplies), ‘we’ can make good money selling gas generated electricity to Europe, so that is what we are doing.

We have been net exporters of electricity since the clocks went back in March, and in June we exportEd as much as we typically imported a year ago, even allowing for the Norway interconnector coming on line which we typically import from. This has had a net effect of around 6-8GW on our generation, almost all of which has been gas. Albeit on windy days it has meant we have switched less wind off (Very little, in fact).

Given that Europe presumably needs electricity, does this allow the UK to take the moral high ground if we need electricity or gas during the winter, when there may be shortages everywhere.

No. The market for trading electricity across Europe is rather complex, but nevertheless is very much a free and competitive market. As such morals, favours or even memory don’t come into it.

essentially people that trade electricity book slots on the interconnectors for certain times and capacities, and they can do this any time ahead. On the day it gets more exciting but the minimum slot length for connectors linking to the National Grid is half an hour.

various websites out there which will show you current trading prices of electricity by country.


One good thing that has come out of the high European electricity prices - and this is the thinnest of silver linings - is that most U.K. wind farms were financed with Contract for Difference ’strike’ prices that at the time seemed astronomical; some were well over £150/MWh, which was getting on for 3-4 times the long term average wholesale electricity cost. But now that the wholesale price of electricity has gone up so much (£169 MWh for the last year, and £300 / MWh right now in the early hours of a Sunday morning !) it means that almost every wind farm in the U.K. is currently paying Government to generate electricity.

 

[najaB]

But now that the wholesale price of electricity has gone up so much (£169 MWh for the last year, and £300 / MWh right now in the early hours of a Sunday morning !) it means that almost every wind farm in the U.K. is currently paying Government to generate electricity.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this - does it mean that wind farms are running at a loss? That doesn't sound right if the market price is high.

 

[WatcherZero]

France has always traditionally shut down their nuclear plants during the summer. In France the plants tend to be river rather than seawater fed and so susceptible to low river levels.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this - does it mean that wind farms are running at a loss? That doesn't sound right if the market price is high.

no, the wind farms receive their CFD price whatever the market price is doing; any difference is backed off by Government through the contract. When the CFDs were set it was expected that Government would be paying the generators, ie because the market price was typically below the strike price. For example, the East Anglia 1 wind farm had a CFD at £114 per MWh, which with the market price at say £40/MWh meant that Government would pay it £74 to make up the difference. (Which with over 700MW on tap soon racks up). Now however with high market prices, the same generators will be paying anything over the CFD price back to Government. The nearly completed Hornsea 2 and Moray East wind farms both have CFDs at £57.50 / MWh, and between them will generate over 2GW on windy days. If this October is like last October for price and wind, U.K. Gov will receive about £60-70m from these two combined for the month (if I’ve done my sums right!)

 

[Ediswan]

no, the wind farms receive their CFD price whatever the market price is doing; any difference is backed off by Government through the contract. When the CFDs were set it was expected that Government would be paying the generators, ie because the market price was typically below the strike price. For example, the East Anglia 1 wind farm had a CFD at £114 per MWh, which with the market price at say £40/MWh meant that Government would pay it £74 to make up the difference. (Which with over 700MW on tap soon racks up). Now however with high market prices, the same generators will be paying anything over the CFD price back to Government. The nearly completed Hornsea 2 and Moray East wind farms both have CFDs at £57.50 / MWh, and between them will generate over 2GW on windy days. If this October is like last October for price and wind, U.K. Gov will receive about £60-70m from these two combined for the month (if I’ve done my sums right!)

Can I attempt to summarise. The wind farm receives a fixed price per MWh. If the market price is lower than that fixed price, the government makes up the difference (a subsidy). If the market price is higher, the government pockets the difference (a windfall, but by contract, rather than a tax).

 

[Snow1964]

Can I attempt to summarise. The wind farm receives a fixed price per MWh. If the market price is lower than that fixed price, the government makes up the difference (a subsidy). If the market price is higher, the government pockets the difference (a windfall, but by contract, rather than a tax).

Just to make it 100% clear, each wind (and solar panel) farm has an agreed price (it is not one universal price for all of them), which is for an agreed number of years and negociated as part of license to build it.

The Government doesn’t totally pick up the cost, each user (consumers like you and me) is charged a levy as part of their bill. Look on your electricity bill for a renewable fuels levy.

Regarding France, like Britain, major maintenance was historically done in summer when demand was lower. However the growth of air conditioning and electric cars is changing the seasonal usage difference (and it is a heatwave there, so expect air conditioners to be adding to electricity demand)

 

[MotCO]

No. The market for trading electricity across Europe is rather complex, but nevertheless is very much a free and competitive market. As such morals, favours or even memory don’t come into it.

essentially people that trade electricity book slots on the interconnectors for certain times and capacities, and they can do this any time ahead. On the day it gets more exciting but the minimum slot length for connectors linking to the National Grid is half an hour.

So when Macron was threatening to cut off the electricity supply to the Channel Islands, that was just a hollow threat?

 

[Bald Rick]

France has always traditionally shut down their nuclear plants during the summer. In France the plants tend to be river rather than seawater fed and so susceptible to low river levels.

That’s the usual position, albeit last winter there were a a lot off line too.

Can I attempt to summarise. The wind farm receives a fixed price per MWh. If the market price is lower than that fixed price, the government makes up the difference (a subsidy). If the market price is higher, the government pockets the difference (a windfall, but by contract, rather than a tax).

Yes that’s it, and put much better than I did. I must stop posting when I’m half asleep!

So when Macron was threatening to cut off the electricity supply to the Channel Islands, that was just a hollow threat?

Governments can of course still direct the use of certain national assets.

 

[telstarbox]

Interesting stuff. Is there still a lot of physical sea space for more UK offshore wind or are we starting to fill it up?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Interesting stuff. Is there still a lot of physical sea space for more UK offshore wind or are we starting to fill it up?

There's a huge amount of space available. The problem is that it's a new technology, and we're only now starting to see the first floating wind farms. The UK just awarded another 25GW of offshore wind rights, with 13GW being for floating windmills. Demand is between 25-35GW daily, and the UK is currently generating 8.43GW through wind power.

In short, it's very very possible that the UK in the next 20 years will be generating a tremendous amount of energy through offshore wind. Some EU countries are facing an energy disaster, and the UK could end up being a major player in the European energy market as a result.

 

[brad465]

There's a huge amount of space available. The problem is that it's a new technology, and we're only now starting to see the first floating wind farms. The UK just awarded another 25GW of offshore wind rights, with 13GW being for floating windmills. Demand is between 25-35GW daily, and the UK is currently generating 8.43GW through wind power.

In short, it's very very possible that the UK in the next 20 years will be generating a tremendous amount of energy through offshore wind. Some EU countries are facing an energy disaster, and the UK could end up being a major player in the European energy market as a result.

Current installed wind capacity is 25GW, but the best we can usually get on a day with good wind speeds widespread is around 14-15GW. I'm not exactly sure why, but one suggestion is the grid is not extensive and efficient enough to get wind power from all farms to somewhere where power is needed, so in this instance if 25GW potential existed on a given day, 10GW approx. would be completely redundant. There was recently an announcement for a major National Grid upgrade amounting to £54bn that will help cater for increasing offshore wind capacity going forward, so it sounds like this potential issue is being addressed.

 

[Dai Corner]

Current installed wind capacity is 25GW, but the best we can usually get on a day with good wind speeds widespread is around 14-15GW. I'm not exactly sure why, but one suggestion is the grid is not extensive and efficient enough to get wind power from all farms to somewhere where power is needed, so in this instance if 25GW potential existed on a given day, 10GW approx. would be completely redundant. There was recently an announcement for a major National Grid upgrade amounting to £54bn that will help cater for increasing offshore wind capacity going forward, so it sounds like this potential issue is being addressed.

I think that 25GW would only be achieved if every single turbine was in service and had just the right conditions to generate its full rated output and there was enough demand in the right areas to consume it all. The grid upgrade would help with the latter but not the former, obviously.

 

[tomuk]

Grid issues are part of the problem the consumers aren't where the farms are. But so is the inherent unreliability of wind, we need a consistent source of power so the farms are over built to provide a more consistent lower output. The amount of lost wind power was 3.8TWh in 2020. Various schemes are being proposed to use this wasted curtailed energy, 'Green Hydrogen is one ie produce Hydrogen from the suplus power which can be more easily stored. There are others like using the power to pressurise old oil\gas wells.

 

[patrick.hearn3]

I'm sad and look at the national grid production from time to time. I use gridwatch (others are available)

Wind power production

GB Wind Generation

gridwatch.co.uk

The max wind production this year is 15.788 GW

I read recently that the UK has around 83GW of potential wind production at some stage of development.

 

[Bald Rick]

Current installed wind capacity is 25GW, but the best we can usually get on a day with good wind speeds widespread is around 14-15GW.

the peak output, which happened on 25 May this year, is as near as makes no difference 20GW. (The Gridwatch number is incorrect). Source: https://www.energylivenews.com/2022/05/30/uk-wind-power-sets-a-new-record/

Wind power production in the UK hit a new record last week.
On Wednesday 25th May, there was 19.916GW of wind on Great Britain’s electricity networks during one of the 30-minute settlement periods.
National Grid ESO has said that was the largest amount of electricity generated by wind turbines for the GB electricity networks at a single point in time so far

I'm not exactly sure why, but one suggestion is the grid is not extensive and efficient enough to get wind power from all farms to somewhere where power is needed

This is an issue. Much of the wind power is in Scotland and off the North Sea, whilst the demand centres are in the south of the country. Ideally we need another North-South 400kv link, but that will be tricky.

 

[patrick.hearn3]

the peak output, which happened on 25 May this year, is as near as makes no difference 20GW. (The Gridwatch number is incorrect). Source: https://www.energylivenews.com/2022/05/30/uk-wind-power-sets-a-new-record/

Thanks. Different measures though. The max output to which you refer was in half-hour slots. The gridwatch measure I referred to is day averages - sorry, I should have made that clear

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks. Different measures though. The max output to which you refer was in half-hour slots. The gridwatch measure I referred to is day averages - sorry, I should have made that clear

Gridwatch doesn’t have all of GBs wind power output in its stats.

The record for daily output was an average of 16.84 GW, but that was for 28 March 2021, and I have no doubt it has been beaten since.

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder what additional potential there is for tidal power generation. Should be more stable than wind.

 

[najaB]

I wonder what additional potential there is for tidal power generation. Should be more stable than wind.

Wave and tidal stream energy is electricity generated from the movement of wave and tidal flows.

Wave power is much more predictable than wind power – and it increases during the winter, when electricity demand is at its highest. Tidal stream energy is also predictable and consistent.

It is estimated the UK has around 50% of Europe’s tidal energy resource, and a study in 2004 estimated the UK’s technical resource at around 16 terawatts per hour per year (TWh/year) (4% of overall supply).

Wave and tidal stream energy has the potential to meet up to 20% of the UK’s current electricity demand, representing a 30-to-50 gigawatt (GW) installed capacity.

Source: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/wave-and-tidal-energy-part-of-the-uks-energy-mix

Edit: The thread title isn't to say that the power flow is towards Europe all the time - this story on the BBC website:

Britain paid the highest price on record for electricity in London last week as the capital narrowly avoided a power blackout, it has emerged.

National Grid paid £9,724 per megawatt hour, more than 5,000% than the typical price, to Belgium on Wednesday to prevent south-east London losing power.

The hottest UK days on record led to power system constraints amid high demand, as first reported by Bloomberg.

London narrowly avoided post-heatwave blackout

The hottest UK days on record led to extreme constraints in the power system amid hiked up demand.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Pete_uk]

There are quite a few GWs in that there Severn tidal range...

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder what additional potential there is for tidal power generation. Should be more stable than wind.

more predictable than wind, but that doesn’t help with the varying cyclic production which still requires significant levels of electrical storage to make use of it. It is also very much more expensive than wind. Hence we won’t see it in any significant quantity.

 

[najaB]

more predictable than wind, but that doesn’t help with the varying cyclic production which still requires significant levels of electrical storage to make use of it. It is also very much more expensive than wind.

Yes it can require storage, but the fact that production can be predicted months or even years into the future make it a lot easier to plan out that capacity. I don't know about very much more expensive - yes it's a larger capital outlay, but the lifetime of a wind turbine is ~20 years where a tidal barrage could be 200 years.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes it can require storage, but the fact that production can be predicted months or even years into the future make it a lot easier to plan out that capacity. I don't know about very much more expensive - yes it's a larger capital outlay, but the lifetime of a wind turbine is ~20 years where a tidal barrage could be 200 years.

fair points.

However I suppose if tidal was easier / cheaper than other technology then we wouldn’t be building a 3.2GW power station on the side of the Bristol Channel, just approved another 3.2GW power station on the Suffolk Coast, plus have 6GW of offshore wind under construction, with another 15GW offshore consented and moving to construction in the next few years. Plus another 7GW onshore consented or under constriction.

 

[ABB125]

building a 3.2MW power station on the side of the Bristol Channel

I'd be a bit disappointed if that's the most you can get from a ~£20b nuclear reactor. About half a pendolino's worth...

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd be a bit disappointed if that's the most you can get from a ~£20b nuclear reactor. About half a pendolino's worth...

Ah, didn’t you know that a West Country watt is worth 1000 normal watts.

 

[najaB]

fair points.

However I suppose if tidal was easier / cheaper than other technology then we wouldn’t be building a 3.2GW power station on the side of the Bristol Channel, just approved another 3.2GW power station on the Suffolk Coast, plus have 6GW of offshore wind under construction, with another 15GW offshore consented and moving to construction in the next few years. Plus another 7GW onshore consented or under constriction.

It's not cheaper (up front) but almost certainly easier than nuclear. The engineering required is pretty much the same as building a dam, and we've been doing that successfully for over a century. And the decommissioning costs are the price of a few tonnes of high explosives.