Interchanges (or potential interchanges)

[tbtc]

The railway industry (and enthusiasts!) seems to be split between the "Hub & Spoke" strategy (e.g. frequent core/ main line services, but potentially needing to change at somewhere like Birmingham New Street), and those who want direct (but infrequent) services linking places (be that Wrexham to London, Lincoln to Birmingham, Colne to Manchester).

It got me thinking about potential "interchanges" that aren't really used as such.

Example 1: Tamworth. There's four trains an hour from Birmingham to Derby (some of which start from Cardiff/ Plymouth/ Reading, and some of which continue to Nottingham/ Newcastle/ Edinburgh), and seven trains an hour from London on the WCML (to Manchester/ Glasgow/ Liverpool/ Chester Holyhead).

However, only around three of these eleven trains stop there (two XC stoppers from Cardiff/ Birmingham to Nottingham, and the one LM stopping service from London/ Northampton to Stoke/ Crewe). You could use Tamworth for a number of journeys (e.g. Burton on Trent to London, Milton Keynes to the East Midlands/ Yorkshire), but these would often involve changing at Birmingham (as things are) - plus additional connections for Birmingham.

Example 2: Carstairs. Not a big place, admittedly. However, the bi-hourly NXEC service (Edinburgh - Glasgow) passes through the station at slow speed, as do the (roughly half hourly) services from Glasgo down the WCML to the Lake District/ Manchester/ Birmingham/ London. Stopping some of these could double the journey opportunities from Edinburgh to these WCML destinations. Addtionally, diverting the (approx bi-hourly) Edinburgh - WCML services into Carstairs station (the TPE to Manchester and Virgin to Birmingham) could give Glasgow more potential WCML journeys (e.g. change from a NXEC Glasgow - Carstairs service onto a TPE service from Edinburgh to Manchester).

I appreciate that neither are currently beautiful stations to wait around at, but they may be more preferable to changing at an intimidating station like Birmingham New Street.

Are there any other stations that could offer better interchanges between lines/ services/ TOCs than they currently do?

 

[First class]

Locally, Sandhills station is really underused- it does my head in, especially as it had millions spent on it last year to provide new waiting rooms, information displays, seating, a new ticket office and made fully accessible.

Most passengers will stay on a train to Liverpool Central, (a massively overcrowded station), and double back on themselves, rather than get off at Sandhills. Locally, we do permit passengers to break their journeys in Liverpool, but most will just interchange there. Most regular commuters have PTE tickets which allow them to change anywhere they fancy, (TRIO, Railpass & Saveaway).

A few journey examples:

Kirkdale-Southport. Most will stay on to Liverpool Central.
Hunts Cross-Ormskirk. Most will change at Liverpool Central.
Kirkby-Hunts Cross. Most will change at Liverpool Central.

I suppose there's loads of stations that you could theoretically change at- Dovey Junction on the Aber/Pwhelli line. Macynlleth is the better station to change at because of it's facilities... but Dovey is likely to be quieter.

 

[Waverley125]

personally I adhere to the 'spoke and branch' theory. I think planning along these lines will make journeys easier, and we should be aiming for the vast majority of journeys have a maximum of one change.

I think WS&MR actually fits in with this theory, but it would need to be allowed to Serve BNS & run along the WCML. IMO it's one of the big plus points of going for long-term, large-area franchises. Incorporation of WS&MR into Virgin would allow one of the three hourly services to Birmingham to be extended to Wrexham, calling at Wolverhampton, Telford, Cosford, Shrewsbury, Gobowen, Chirk & Ruabon.

The obvious candidates for 'hub' status are: Reading, Bristol Temple Meads, Birmingham New Street, Nuneaton, Crewe, Peterborough, Doncaster, Leeds, Manchester Piccadilly, Preston, Preston & Edinburgh Waverley.

It is therefore vital that a good number of services of all types call at these stations. The removal of all VT sservices from nuneaton was an idiotic move, for instance, as Nuneaton serves a very large area, including Coventry, for northbound journeys.

 

[generalvegitable]

I personally think that a compromise would be better because local trains would use the hub and spoke arrangement, and long distance trains would only call at the hubs and large towns/cities that are not transport hubs.

 

[me123]

Carstairs is a strange one, really. I wouldn't really see the need in Virgin serving it to be honest. But I think TPE and Scotrail would have a case. Let me explain:

TPE run 9 trains a day to Scotland from Manchester Airport (I think). Edinburgh gets the lion's share, with Glasgow having only 3 a day. I'd suggest, however, a slightly different approach. TPE run all trains to Glasgow. This would connect with a Scotrail semi-fast service Carstairs-Edinburgh Waverley. The result: Carstairs finally gets a decent local service and both Glasgow and Edinburgh get an enhanced service to Manchester.

Before all the Edinburgers start an uproar, this is only a suggestion. You could make a case for the trains reversing at Carstairs and going to Edinburgh with FSR running Glasgow-Carstairs. But here's why I'd prefer my option:

• It eliminates the need to reverse at Carstairs
• An additional Glasgow-Carstairs service would eat up valuable space at Glasgow Central; a semi-fast train would be more difficult to flight in than a fast one.
• Wester Hailes and Kirknewton get a poor service of 1tph. There would be demand for this to be increased, and this would help this cause.

As the OP says, an alternative option would be to time the TPEs to connect with NXEC at Carstairs. But that would require a lot of synchronising between two timetables which would have knock-on effects across the North of England.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The removal of all VT sservices from nuneaton was an idiotic move, for instance, as Nuneaton serves a very large area, including Coventry, for northbound journeys.

I'm a huge fan of Virgin's HF timetable. It enables us Scots to reach London in a fantastic time; the train can easily compete with the plane now! But axing Nuneaton was a stupid move in my opinion. I think there'd be enough reason to reinstate an hourly call at the station on a Manchester-London service. Besides, this happens anyway in the peaks I think.

The other one that really grinds my gears is Crewe. As I say, I'm a huge fan of the new timetable, especially from Glasgow. But I think the extra 5 minutes to add a stop at Crewe on a few services would be worthwhile. The journey opportunities available are fantastic, so it would be a valuable call in my opinion. Non-stop to Warrington is a tad silly to me, because very few transfers available from Warrington.

 

[tbtc]

Carstairs is a strange one, really. I wouldn't really see the need in Virgin serving it to be honest. But I think TPE and Scotrail would have a case. Let me explain:

TPE run 9 trains a day to Scotland from Manchester Airport (I think). Edinburgh gets the lion's share, with Glasgow having only 3 a day. I'd suggest, however, a slightly different approach. TPE run all trains to Glasgow. This would connect with a Scotrail semi-fast service Carstairs-Edinburgh Waverley. The result: Carstairs finally gets a decent local service and both Glasgow and Edinburgh get an enhanced service to Manchester

Sounds good to me - and a regular timetable would be much better for both Glasgow and Edinburgh than the gaps that they both have now.

axing Nuneaton was a stupid move in my opinion

Agreed, given the proximity of Coventry, and the poor service from the East Midlands to Lancashire may make Peterborogh/ Leicester - Manchester/ Liverpool jouneys work by changing there

Non-stop to Warrington is a tad silly to me, because very few transfers available from Warrington

It's a shame there's not one decent "interchange" between Preston and Crewe. Warrington could be a fantastic one, if the two stations were built where the lines cross (not ideal for the locals, but four trains an hour for Manchester and Liverpool would given lots of WCML connections).

One alternative WCML improvement that'd be fairly simple to do would be to divert the two Northern services from Wigan Wallgate to Manchester Victoria each hour (i.e. NOT the ones to/from Kirkby/ Southport) to serve Wigan North Western instead. That'd give better connections, plus allow trips like Liverpool - Bolton with just one change (combining the Liverpool - Wigan North Western service through to Manchester Victoria may be a little far fetched, given pathing problems crossing the WCML).

Okay, I accept that there's precious little distance between North Western and Wallgate, and that this may be confusing for the people of Wigan with Manchester trains running from two stations, but it may take some pressure off Preston etc.

 

[ashworth]

Although creating some new Interchanges would be a great idea, I do think a great deal could be done without this by just improving connections on many existing services and routes.

I agree there really should be more through trains from Manchester to Glasgow especially during the middle of the day. Northbound from Manchester there is a gap from 1016 until 1715 and southbound from Glasgow there is a gap from 1010 until 1410 and then no more through services.

Why do so many of these TPE services run to Edinburgh instead of Glasgow?
A more frequent service at convenient times for connections would also be of benefit to passengers from Nottingham and Sheffield who lost their through service to Glasgow years ago.
One change at Manchester Piccadilly for journeys from Nottingham would be far better than having to change at Derby and Crewe especially now that services from Crewe to Glasgow are no more frequent than every two hours. Also the ECML services to Glasgow do not stop at Grantham for connections from Nottingham.

Bring back through services via the Settle and Carlisle!
With Northern's new hourly Nottingham-Leeds service, using the old route changing at Leeds and Carlisle, is now almost becoming the most convenient route again.
But of course it is so expensive because Northern do not issue any AP tickets.

Another example on a more local basis is connections at Worksop for passengers wanting to travel from the Mansfield area to Shefield and the north. EMT and Northern need to get their services to connect so that there isn't a 45 minute wait at Worksop. This would benefit both TOC's by encouraging more passengers becasue at present it is far easier to travel by road from Mansfield to Sheffield than have to wait 45 minutes for a connection at Worksop.

 

[route:oxford]

Bletchley (in the near future)...

Perfect for travellers from Reading & Oxford who'd like a fast service to Scotland & NW of England who don't relish changing at Birmingham New Street or travelling across London.

 

[The Planner]

Id expect Reading passengers would have to change at Oxford anyway. I wouldnt be suprised if E-W rail is self contained and doesnt have much in the way of long distance services. I wouldnt expect much change infrastructure wise at Oxford once Chiltern get the Marylebone service going, in which case you are still going to have a single lead at Oxford North.

 

[87015]

I'm still waiting for anyone to work out how to platforms on the flyover without totally wrecking the business case is aswell. Bletchley is not good for long-distance WCML connections anyway compared to pre-VHF, MK no longer has direct trains to Preston or Glasgow at any useful times.

 

[Waverley125]

how abut this sort of pattern on the WCML:

2tph Euston-Birmingham New Street (VT)
1)Watford Junc, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Bham Int
2)Milton Keynes, Coventry, Bham Int

1tph Euston-Wolverhampton (VT)
Coventry, Bham New St,

3tph Euston-Manchester Piccadilly (VT)

1)Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport
2)Milton Keynes, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport
3)Crewe, Stockport

2tph Euston-Liverpool (VT)

1)Watford Junc, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn
2)Crewe, Runcorn

2tph Euston-Glasgow Central (VT)

1)Nuneaton, Crewe, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell

2)Preston, Lancaster, Penrith, Carlisle, Motherwell

1tp2h Euston-Blackpool North (VT)

Watford Junc, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan NW, Preston, Poulton le Fylde

1tph Euston-Chester (VT)

Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe

1tp2h Euston-Holyhead (VT)

Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Bangor, Holyhead

1tph Birmingham New St-Glasgow Central (VT)

Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan NW, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Lockerbie, Carstairs

2tph Euston-Crewe (LM)

Watford Junc, Rugby, Bletchley, Milton Keynes, Northampton, rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Polesworth, Tamworth, Lichfield TV, Rugeley TV, Stafford, Stone, Stoke on Trent, Alsager, Kidsgrove

2tph Birmingham N St-Liverpool Lime St (LM)

Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway, Liverpool Lime St

1tp2h Manchester Airport-Glasgow Central

Manchester Picadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Bolton, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Lockerbie, Carstairs, Motherwell, Glasgow Central

1tp2h Manchester Airport-Edinburgh Waverley

as above, Carstairs, Haymarket, Edinburgh Waverley

 

[Mojo]

I don't know whether you'd have pathing problems running non stop Coventry to New Street

 

[thefab444]

Nuneaton doesn't need 3tph, plus another one every other hour, and 2tph from London Midland! What about Tamworth and Lichfield? Also... 2tph to Glasgow is a bit excessive.

 

[Geezertronic]

I don't know whether you'd have pathing problems running non stop Coventry to New Street

I think you are correct... the only Virgin Trains service that I know runs non stop is the 0730 Birmingham New Street to London Euston non stopper and I assume Virgin Trains counteracted the pathing issue by starting the 0741 to London Euston at Birmingham International (Platform 5)

 

[me123]

2tph to Glasgow isn't needed. Glasgow should get a proper hourly service when the stock's available, though. And perhaps an hourly semi-fast to Preston/Lancaster if there's demand in the future. Glasgow gets 2 or 3tp2h at the moment, and to be honest that's all we need for now. (1tph to London, 1tp2h to Birmingham). Above, I was going to run all TPE trains (1tp2h) to Glasgow with a shuttle Carstairs-Waverley; this would natually enhance Lockerbie's service as well. I don't think Virgin serving Carstairs would be of any use whatsoever, and the current Birmingham alternating service between Glasgow and Edinburgh works fine; there's effectively 2tp2h with a change at Preston/Carlisle, and Edinburgh gets the slower but still feasible XC route.

 

[thefab444]

I also note you've halved Warrington and Wigan's London trains, and withdrawn all trains to Penkridge. When BR last tried that, the local landowner, a Baron Hatherton, threatened to remove the rights of passage through his land.

 

[yorkie]

Example 2: Carstairs. Not a big place, admittedly. However, the bi-hourly NXEC service (Edinburgh - Glasgow) passes through the station at slow speed, as do the (roughly half hourly) services from Glasgo down the WCML to the Lake District/ Manchester/ Birmingham/ London.

No, the latter services pass through at about 90mph and would cost several minutes in lost time.

Stopping some of these could double the journey opportunities from Edinburgh to these WCML destinations.

Only if timed to connect. I can't see it happening.

Addtionally, diverting the (approx bi-hourly) Edinburgh - WCML services into Carstairs station (the TPE to Manchester and Virgin to Birmingham) could give Glasgow more potential WCML journeys (e.g. change from a NXEC Glasgow - Carstairs service onto a TPE service from Edinburgh to Manchester).

Is this really worth a reversal and about 10 mins extra journey time?

This seems to be a continuation/repetition of this thread!

 

[43106]

Having spent a considerable amount of time looking at the various combinations possible for Carstairs, my ideas are...
1) 1 tph Glasgow to London, ALL stopping at Carlisle and Crewe (in my view, Crewe is an excellent place for an interchange, it always has been), but NONE at Carstairs,
2) 1 tph Edinburgh to Birmingham, again none calling at Carstairs. I hate reversing, as it takes up too much time,
3) 0.5tph Glasgow to Manchester, probably 'joining' up with existing Manchester - Birmingham - Beyond services. ALL of these stop at Carstairs,
4) 0.5tph NXEC Kings Cross - Edinburgh - Glasgow service should ALL call at Carstairs. 3) and 4) could be timed so that a northbound NXEC and southbound TPE service (and vice versa) arrive and depart Carstairs at the same time.

I agree re the lack of VT stopping at Nuneaton, Watford Junc and (to some extent) Tamworth & Lichfield. I'd like to see...
3tph stopping at Watford Junc,
3tph stopping at Milton Keynes (NOT the same 3tph as Watford - LM services would link WFJ with MK)
about 1.5tph at Rugby
about 1.5tph at Nuneaton
0.5tph at Tamworth, and...
0.5tph at Lichfield

 

[dojo]

I'm just happy to see someone who reckons there should be 2tph between Lime Street and Euston. But I also see that Stafford is getting a lot of love...7tph to London? Reallllly?

 

[Waverley125]

ok, rejigged a litle:

Virgin:

1tph Euston-Glasgow Central (Milton Keynes, Warrington, Wigan NW, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme/Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell)

1tp2h Euston-Glasgow Central (Preston, Carlisle)

1tph Euston-Birmingham (Watford Junc, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Bham International)

1tph Euston-Birmingham (Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Bham International)

1tph Euston-Wolverhampton (Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street)

1tph Euston-Manchester Piccadilly (Watford Junc, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth/Lichfield, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport)

1tph Euston-Manchester Piccadilly (Milton Keynes, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport)

1tph Euston-Manchester Piccadilly (Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport)

1tph Euston-Liverpool Lime Street (Watford Junc, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn)

1tph Euston-Liverpool (Crewe, Runcorn)

1tp2h Euston-Chester (Milton Keynes, Rugby, Tamworth, Lichfield TV, Crewe)

1tp4h Euston-Holyhead (Crewe, Chester, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Bangor, Holyhead)

1tp2h Euston-Blackpool (Crewe, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Preston, Poulton le Fylde)

1tph Birmingham-Glasgow (Wolverhampton, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell)

London Midland:

1tph Euston-Birmingham (Watford Junc, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby, Coventry, Bham International)

1tph Euston-Birmingham (Watford Junc, all stations)

2tph Euston-Crewe (Watford Junc, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Polesworth, Tamworth, Lichfield, Rugeley, Stafford, Stoke, Kidsgrove, Alsager)

2tph Birmingham-Liverpool Lime Street (Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway)

First TPE:

1tp2h Manchester Airport-Edinburgh (Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Bolton, Horwich Parkway, Chorley, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Carstairs, Haymarket, Edinburgh Waverley)

1tp2h Manchester Airport-Glasgow (Picadilly, Oxford Road, Bolton, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell)

 

[MCR247]

So, virgin now wont serve edinburgh, I think that there should be an alternate service form Brum

 

[Pumbaa]

1tph Euston-Glasgow Central (Milton Keynes, Warrington, Wigan NW, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme/Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell)

It's been established elsewhere the loadings for Watford - Glasgow are a lot higher than MK - Glasgow.

1tph Euston-Wolverhampton (Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street)

There's a reason why the current Wolves service stops at Watford - it's bloody well used!

 

[Geezertronic]

1tph Euston-Birmingham (Watford Junc, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Bham International)

1tph Euston-Birmingham (Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Bham International)

1tph Euston-Wolverhampton (Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street)

You can't have a Birmingham bound Pendo stopping at Milton Keynes, Watford and Rugby? Two out of three yes but not all three surely?

 

[tbtc]

So, virgin now wont serve edinburgh, I think that there should be an alternate service form Brum

...but if Edinburgh already has an hourly service to Birmingham (via Yorkshire), wouldn't the Birmingham - WCML service be better going to Glasgow regularly?

 

[me123]

Well, the WCML service is much faster. Therefore, you can depart later on a Virgin Train and arrive at BHM earlier than you would have on a XC service. You'd be taking away a valuable fast service, linking Scotland's First City to Edinubrgh's Second. Besides, Glasgow doesn't need 2tph on the WCML. The alternating service works fine as it is; effectively Edinburgh has the XC option which is quicker every other hour, and Glasgow has an almost hourly service with a change en route.