Interavailability of rail and Bus tickets

[Ken H]

I thought quite hard about where to put this. but as its a current question I plumped for here.

I am doing indexing for timetableworld(dot)com.
So I am examining bus timetables from 1960 - 1974
Most timetables have many pages about rail/road ticket availability. It seems you could travel out by bus with a return ticket. But then you could opt to make the return journey by rail, after paying a supplement. But only for certain journies, which were specified in the bus timetables. You could also travel out by train, and return by bus, but dont think you got a refund!

So back to 2020. Do we think such a facility would boost public transport use today? Particularly in areas with infrequent services*. It would probably break current competition law - so that would need new legislation. Who would use such a facility? And would it make money for the train and bus industries?

Its possible in some areas. For instance a West Yorkshire bus and rail day rover would allow out and return by different modes.

* I thought the 580/581/582 Skipton - Settle - Lancaster, and the Northern Skipton-Settle-Lancaster train service.

 

[JonathanH]

So back to 2020. Do we think such a facility would boost public transport use today? Particularly in areas with infrequent services*. It would probably break current competition law - so that would need new legislation. Who would use such a facility? And would it make money for the train and bus industries?

There are quite a few problems with this - firstly 'busstitution' of rail services is rather difficult politically, different fares are currently charged for the different modes and then there is the problem of revenue apportionment.

There were a few threads on something similar fairly recently including this one. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-treating-public-transport-as-a-whole.205481/

Its possible in some areas. For instance a West Yorkshire bus and rail day rover would allow out and return by different modes.

Probably the best approach really but 'bus only' and 'train only' are cheaper than 'bus & train'.

 

[Llandudno]

There is, of course the PlusBus ticket, not sure if that many potential public transport users know about it.
Does anyone have any idea how many of these are sold in a normal year?

There are a few County type Rover and Wayfarer tickets, most only valid on trains at off peak times.

I think that there should be through bus/rail or inter available tickets on certain routes provided the bus element connects where possible with trains and the bus journeys appear on rail journey planners along with fares and the usual railcard discounts etc.

SOME examples could be:

Llandudno - Bleanau Ffestiniog
Penrith - Keswick
Oban - Fort William
Exeter - Bude
Taunton - Minehead
Malton/Scarborough - Whitby
Buxton - Matlock
Aberystwyth - Carmarthen!!!

Feel free to add to the list!

 

[Ianno87]

Inverness - Wick

 

[Steddenm]

I think Translink Northern Ireland Railways do/did this. You could buy a return ticket on the train and use it on Ulsterbus in the evening.

 

[randyrippley]

During the late 1970's Lancashire County Council strictly enforced interavailability and combined ticketing of all bus and rail ticketing within the county- including between all bus companies. No surcharges, same fare for bus and rail. It was described as the first such system in the country.
Extremely useful.
Unfortunately destroyed by deregulation, and I suspect wiped from history

 

[route101]

I use the plus bus occasionally when I'm through in Edinburgh, nearly £2 reduction in day ticket price if bought separately with railcard discount. Though last time i used it on Lothian, the driver refused, that's the danger with it.

 

[RT4038]

When these arrangements were made (which go back to the 1950s and before), train services ran much less frequently than they do nowadays. They were often restricted to only certain types of tickets (rail ordinary returns usually, but not always, rarely cheap day returns and certainly not priv tickets. season tickets, rovers etc).
There were cases where ordinary single tickets for longer distance journeys finishing on minor lines with sparse service could be completed by bus from the main line junction station.
I don't think long distance rail tickets, involving a bus journey in the middle were ever permitted, presumably because the bus conductor could not withdraw and exchange the ticket for accounting purposes.
The scheme was never universal, and was not fully interavailable as might be found in some European contexts.

Generally bus tickets had to be exchanged for a rail ticket at the booking office; sometimes rail ticket holders exchanged their ticket for an omnibus permit at the booking office, sometimes bus conductors took the train ticket and issued a normal bus ticket in exchange. Either way, the two undertakings invoiced each other. Passengers often had to pay a difference in fare, sometimes on the bus and sometimes at the booking office.

Deregulation no doubt provided the impetus to discontinue any remaining examples, although I believe most had fallen into disuse before then. Aside from the closure of many lines and intermediate local stations, the de-staffing of stations ('PayTrains') meant that the exchange of bus tickets for rail tickets became problematic. The increase on varieties of rail tickets and the different supplements that this would require (and the recognition training that this would require), plus one-man-bus conversion, meant that the bus companies no longer wanted this faff for what was always a very small market.
I am not sure that competition law prevents such an arrangement, as the prices are set independently and a supplement collected. However, there are many other reasons why both rail and bus companies would not wish to enter into it, mostly connected with complexity and practicalities.

 

[skifans]

There are a handful of places where it still survives - take the Hope Valley line: https://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/trans...ts-passes/bus-rail/bus-rail-link-tickets.aspx

Holders of return tickets issued on the Hope Valley train service and bus services 271 and 272 between Sheffield, Hathersage, Bamford and Hope or Castleton, can use these tickets to return by either bus or train (train tickets to and from Hope will be valid from and to Castleton on the 271 or 272 bus, and bus tickets to and from Castleton will be valid from and to Hope on the train).

Someone may know better but as far as I know it's still valid. My experience from previously living nearby was that it wasn't the easiest to use in practice - First buses and rail guards don't seem to be aware of it. My experience is Hulleys of Baslow are the most likely to know. Although I noticed First recently changed their website to acknowledge it. It definitely used to appear in Northern timetables as well but got taken out a few years ago.

Edit: Managed to find an email I sent asking if this still applies where I have a screenshot after it got taken out. Apparently that was from the summer 2017 timetable. The response I had it's clear that whoever at Northern replied have never heard of it - but which hilariously says the inter-acceptance was only with TPE. Who don't serve any of the intermediate stations involved.

Personally I think the logistics behind such things are to great, although it would be nice to see. An easier solution in my view would be to abolish return tickets on buses and trains and move to a single leg pricing system. Would also be useful in the countless other situations where 1 bus company doesn't except another's returns when both run along a common section. Or even worse when the evening service is run by another company.

 

[NoRoute]

On Plusbus, the principle is great but the current design is badly thought through because you must have a paper rail ticket to make the outbound bus journey to the station.

Anyone living in the 21st century buying their tickets online to collect at the station, or having them electronically on their phone can't use it for their outbound journey unless they book 5 days in advance and get tickets posted, or visit the railway station to collect the tickets, to let them get the bus to the station they've just visited. Some of our industries need bringing into the 21st century.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I use the plus bus occasionally when I'm through in Edinburgh, nearly £2 reduction in day ticket price if bought separately with railcard discount. Though last time i used it on Lothian, the driver refused, that's the danger with it.

Last time I was in sunny Workington, had to show the bus driver the relevant publicity leaflet to confirm that my railway issued "Lakes Day Ranger" ticket was indeed valid across to Keswick on a Stagecoach Cumbria bus/coach service.

 

[Ianno87]

On Plusbus, the principle is great but the current design is badly thought through because you must have a paper rail ticket to make the outbound bus journey to the station.

Anyone living in the 21st century buying their tickets online to collect at the station, or having them electronically on their phone can't use it for their outbound journey unless they book 5 days in advance and get tickets posted, or visit the railway station to collect the tickets, to let them get the bus to the station they've just visited. Some of our industries need bringing into the 21st century.

Yes, that is one of my personal slight gripes with PlusBus as currently implemented!

 

[randyrippley]

Last time I was in sunny Workington, had to show the bus driver the relevant publicity leaflet to confirm that my railway issued "Lakes Day Ranger" ticket was indeed valid across to Keswick on a Stagecoach Cumbria bus/coach service.

That's crazy.
Around Grange and Ulverston I've even had non-Stagecoach buses accept the ticket even though they're not part of the deal

 

[RT4038]

On Plusbus, the principle is great but the current design is badly thought through because you must have a paper rail ticket to make the outbound bus journey to the station.

Anyone living in the 21st century buying their tickets online to collect at the station, or having them electronically on their phone can't use it for their outbound journey unless they book 5 days in advance and get tickets posted, or visit the railway station to collect the tickets, to let them get the bus to the station they've just visited. Some of our industries need bringing into the 21st century.

I should think that the issue is that bus company ticket machines cannot read rail electronic tickets. The cost of development and equipping the fleet with such machines (which are surely technically possible, but practicably not so) is probably difficult to justify for the size of market that they will serve.

 

[gallafent]

I have a vague recollection that when the “Thames Trains” franchise was in operation, one could use the return part of an Oxford-London return train ticket on the “Oxford Tube” (or maybe it was the X90, would make more sense since Thames Trains was Go-Ahead Group iirc) to come back from London to Oxford if you had missed the last train. I might be completely misremembering of course.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

A bit off subject, but years ago I worked a late shift one Sunday in the ticket office at Hampton Court station and spent most of the afteroon exchanging the return portions of boat tickets from Westminster pier for single tickets to Waterloo.

 

[Llandudno]

Yep, it’s too complicated as it is virtually impossible for all public facing staff, bus and rail to remember all the varying ticket types and validities.

Here are some of my recent experiences:

Stagecoach driver refusing TfGM Wayfarer on a Chorley Bus
High Peak bus driver refusing to accept a Hulleys issued Derbyshire Wayfarer
TfW Guard unable to issue north Wales Rover ticket
Northern Guard unable to issue PlusBus on bog roll ticket (perhaps they can now?)
Number of shoulder shrugs on Snowdon Sherpa buses when using north Wales Rover ticket
EMT (2018) refusing to accept Derbyshire Wayfarer on Matlock-Derby train
Blank looks when presenting PlusBus tickets on various buses in England & Wales

 

[ALEMASTER]

Apparently one of the features of the (failed) Stagecoach bid for the East Midlands rail franchise involved taking smart card ticket fulfilment to another level where you could buy the train ticket online along with a ticket for the connecting Stagecoach bus or tram and by tapping on the ticket machine on the bus/tram it would load the lot onto the card.

The Hope Valley inter-available arrangement for return tickets on bus/train still exists as far as I am aware although it probably less used now as the bus company day tickets tend to be cheaper than the returns. My experience travelling out by train and back by bus has had no issues on First bus, my experience of travelling out by bus and back by train was the conductor never came through checking tickets on those occasions so none the wiser!

in South Yorkshire the Travelmaster range of tickets include "South Yorkshire Connect Plus" which allows unlimited travel on buses, trams and trains anywhere in South Yorkshire with 1 day, 7 day, 28 day and annual versions available. https://www.sytravelmaster.com/all-zone

 

[6Gman]

When these arrangements were made (which go back to the 1950s and before), train services ran much less frequently than they do nowadays. They were often restricted to only certain types of tickets (rail ordinary returns usually, but not always, rarely cheap day returns and certainly not priv tickets. season tickets, rovers etc).

And in many areas both the railway and the bus companies were ultimately under the same ownership: the British Transport Commission.

Most of East Anglia, Lincolnshire, Bedfordshire, large parts of the West Country, North and West Wales, parts of West Yorkshire etc.

 

[RT4038]

And in many areas both the railway and the bus companies were ultimately under the same ownership: the British Transport Commission.

Most of East Anglia, Lincolnshire, Bedfordshire, large parts of the West Country, North and West Wales, parts of West Yorkshire etc.

Yes, but I think Road/Rail interavailability arrangements were just as likely at BET group companies (such as Midland 'Red' or Ribble), which were not owned by the British Transport Commission.

The patchy application of the schemes looks very much like the impetus for introduction was curtailment of train frequencies.

 

[185143]

Yep, it’s too complicated as it is virtually impossible for all public facing staff, bus and rail to remember all the varying ticket types and validities.

Here are some of my recent experiences:

Stagecoach driver refusing TfGM Wayfarer on a Chorley Bus Not unusual at all in my experience, First being by far the worst offenders. Best one was a bus driver in Bury saying "That's only for trains" before backing down when I pointed out I must have arrived by tram or bus.
High Peak bus driver refusing to accept a Hulleys issued Derbyshire Wayfarer Was it in the proper plastic sleeve?
TfW Guard unable to issue north Wales Rover ticket 2/3 zone or all zone? Chester ticket office had issues doing a 2 zone for me a few years ago. Had no issue buying an all zone onboard in the bog roll era though.
Northern Guard unable to issue PlusBus on bog roll ticket (perhaps they can now?) Yes, they can.
Number of shoulder shrugs on Snowdon Sherpa buses when using north Wales Rover ticket
EMT (2018) refusing to accept Derbyshire Wayfarer on Matlock-Derby train Was it in the proper plastic sleeve? Then again I've used them without and not had an issue, beyond someone not realising that it was an adult+child ticket, but was happily corrected.
Blank looks when presenting PlusBus tickets on various buses in England & Wales Far, far too many to count. But much better known than it used to be.

Added my experiences/thoughts to the above.

 

[L401CJF]

Yep, it’s too complicated as it is virtually impossible for all public facing staff, bus and rail to remember all the varying ticket types and validities.

Here are some of my recent experiences:

Stagecoach driver refusing TfGM Wayfarer on a Chorley Bus
High Peak bus driver refusing to accept a Hulleys issued Derbyshire Wayfarer
TfW Guard unable to issue north Wales Rover ticket
Northern Guard unable to issue PlusBus on bog roll ticket (perhaps they can now?)
Number of shoulder shrugs on Snowdon Sherpa buses when using north Wales Rover ticket
EMT (2018) refusing to accept Derbyshire Wayfarer on Matlock-Derby train
Blank looks when presenting PlusBus tickets on various buses in England & Wales

I agree completely.

I'm a bus driver and have been for 6 years. I work in a plusbus area for a number of stations, During my training at both the companies I worked/work for I was told what they are and that we accept them. Neither had a specimen ticket to show us, and in the 6 years I've been driving buses I've still never seen one. I do work in the Merseytravel area, so see quite a lot of Saveaway all mode tickets even though they are on smartcards now. You do very occasionally see a paper one though.

The amount of different tickets we offer on the buses (at my previous employer anyway) such as Jobseeker singles etc which I never once sold is quite mind-boggling. I fully understand why often on the railway its hard to get certain tickets from staff. The amount of times I've asked for a Cheshire day ranger at a Merseyrail station and been issued a Mersey Saveaway is quite shocking!

I have only ever used a plus bus ticket once, going back over 10 years now somewhere in the Lakes. The Stagecoach driver hadn't a clue what it was, but let us on anyway.

The whole ticketing system on all forms of transport needs simplifying, and more integrated ticketing would be superb, however given the range of different ticket machines, ticket styles etc and then the problem of dishing out revenue to the relevant parties would pose quite a problem.

 

[gallafent]

I should think that the issue is that bus company ticket machines cannot read rail electronic tickets. The cost of development and equipping the fleet with such machines (which are surely technically possible, but practicably not so) is probably difficult to justify for the size of market that they will serve.

Oxford buses have a QR code (or it might be some similar type of 2D “bar code”) reader which is used to validate the paper 24h passes (for example). A PlusBus could have a similar QR code, which, importantly, could be presented to the reader on a piece of paper (print at home), cardboard (rail ticket stock) or phone screen. Wonder if anyone's doing this. (The same buses also have smart-card readers, another option for storing tickets which works one buses and trains, potentially …)

 

[charley_17/7]

I recall Derbyshire County Council/Derwent Valley Rail Transport Partnership at one time also having inter-available ticketing between Derby and Matlock. This was back when Trentbarton ran the TransPeak and MML/CT ran the train service. It fell foul of competition law?

Brighton also had their own multi-modal travelcard back in the 1980s, valid on both buses and trains. However, Connex wanted a greater share of the revenue and the scheme collapsed. Interestingly, you don't need to have travelled from outside Brighton to buy a PlusBus, you can combine it with local train tickets, I don't know anywhere else that allows it.

I don't understand if the London, Scottish and Dutch Governments/transport agencies can introduce multi-modal smartcard ticketing technology, with multiple operators, ownership and zones, why it seems beyond everywhere else?

For example, GTR are promoting their KeyCard and KeyGo scheme, where I can replace my Annual Gold Card paper ticket and PlusBus annual with a smartcard. Does it work on all PlusBus operators? No. Does it calculate the cheapest fare where Thameslink Only is cheaper, but you have to buy it from a different origin (e.g. Gatwick Airport to Brighton is cheaper than Three Bridges to Brighton)? No, so those "in the know" or helpful staff sell the cheapest fare, whereas the "smartcard" with its supposedly magic technology will calculate the cheapest fare, except it doesn't. You can't even start your first part by Bus! Three No's from me.......

Be sticking with paper tickets, thanks!