Inter City 225 -v- Pendolino: your views as a passenger?

[DaveNewcastle]

Two advantages of the 225's when compared to a Pendolino:

1) A bigger and better equipped kitchen.
A kitchen which is capable of preparing and delivering a large number of varied dishes and which is reasonably integrated with the cold storeage.

2) Vastly bigger capacity for carrying luggage, bicycles and other large objects in the DVT.
Sadly, this isn't well used, due in part to the short dwell times at intermediate stations. But I do smile when I see its door opened to reveal 40 or 60 cases which would otherwise have been clogging up the passenger carriages. A northbound at the start of the academic year at Durham is a good example. I wonder if the change of 4 Newcastle terminators running though to Edinburgh soon will reduce the Company's enthusiasm for loading Newcastle cases in the DVT.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

For ride quality I think the Pendolino is the best we have in this country. Combined with the acceleration, braking and tilting it is a superb "journey
shrinker". I'm also OK with seats; they don't feel plush when you first sit but I always feel comfortable once I've settled and have no trouble dozing off in one. The overall ambience is poor however. Mostly it's due to the construction required to fit an Italian train in the British loading gauge but the lighting is dull and patchy. And I believe the original Virgin Trains had a group of designers working in part of what became the EWS national control centre in Doncaster that were responsible for the interiors of both Pendolinos and Voyagers.

The Mk4 is almost the opposite. It has a much more spacious feel helped by large windows and full-length saloons. But I've always found the ride to be surprisingly bumpy for something that was supposed to be an improvement on the Mk3. There is quite a history to the seats. The originals were perhaps the first of the modern trend in "thin and hard" and they were very firm when new and took a long time to soften up at all. The much heralded Mallard seats were softer but poorly shaped for many people leading to the sort of complaints highlighted in this thread and which I echo. First reports of the newest seats are encouraging and I look forward to trying one out.

As for the Mk3 it was widely praised when new. In fact Modern Railways was always calling it the best ride in Europe with only SNCF Corail coaches to
challenge it. That said it has been overtaken by technology and if the Mk4 was disappointing I think that many modern multiple units ride much better than the Mk3. It also copes with minor dips and bumps quite poorly especially if suspension components are worn ie it needs all the different components in good condition to maintain a good ride. Never was very keen on the interiors at least in Standard class. The GNER refurbishment was OK (the one with the brown seats) and the ultra high backed seats on GW are surprisingly comfortable.

My best ride ever (several times in fact) was Croatian Railways 2nd class on the EC train that ran between Zagreb and Leipzig. Seating of a generous width
arranged 2+1 (yes, in 2nd class!), full air-conditioning and not particularly busy so very relaxed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mostly it's due to the construction required to fit an Italian train in the British loading gauge but the lighting is dull and patchy.

That's rather a matter of opinion. Personally I consider Pendolino lighting subdued, classy and relaxing, with most other recent rolling stock being far too bright or in an uncomfortably white colour. It almost harks back to the warmth of old-style tungsten bulbs.

The Mk4 is almost the opposite. It has a much more spacious feel helped by large windows and full-length saloons. But I've always found the ride to be surprisingly bumpy for something that was supposed to be an improvement on the Mk3.

The ride is absolutely terrible. Inexcusably bad. Only a Pacer seems to be worse.

As for the Mk3 it was widely praised when new. In fact Modern Railways was always calling it the best ride in Europe with only SNCF Corail coaches to
challenge it. That said it has been overtaken by technology and if the Mk4 was disappointing I think that many modern multiple units ride much better than the Mk3.

I'd say your benchmarks are the Class 221 (but probably because it's so heavy), but also the Class 158 which performs admirably even on terrible quality track. A fine regional express unit if there ever was one. Shame no hauled coaches were built based on it.

Mk3 are OK, but there is a characteristic side to side sway.

Never was very keen on the interiors at least in Standard class. The GNER refurbishment was OK (the one with the brown seats) and the ultra high backed seats on GW are surprisingly comfortable.

InterCity 70 seats are rubbish in just about every way. I agree on the GW seating - while many don't like them they are my favourite. I would say the ATW interior is slightly better done but there isn't much in it - both are very high quality refurbs. Chiltern, OTOH, is done on the cheap using the terrible original seats and cheapest-of-the-cheap LED lighting which is very harsh on the eyes.

My best ride ever (several times in fact) was Croatian Railways 2nd class on the EC train that ran between Zagreb and Leipzig. Seating of a generous width
arranged 2+1 (yes, in 2nd class!), full air-conditioning and not particularly busy so very relaxed.

Would you believe that this:

http://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/read.php?31,7314676,page=all

was second class on DB IC a while ago? (Sorry, it won't embed). They've now I think all been converted to more conventional seating, sadly.

 

[sprinterguy]

2) Vastly bigger capacity for carrying luggage, bicycles and other large objects in the DVT.
Sadly, this isn't well used, due in part to the short dwell times at intermediate stations. But I do smile when I see its door opened to reveal 40 or 60 cases which would otherwise have been clogging up the passenger carriages. A northbound at the start of the academic year at Durham is a good example. I wonder if the change of 4 Newcastle terminators running though to Edinburgh soon will reduce the Company's enthusiasm for loading Newcastle cases in the DVT.

This is one of my biggest criticisms of modern long distance trains in the UK; insufficient dedicated storage space for bulky items of luggage. It's certainly a bugbear that people I know have regarding the Pendolinos. However as you quite rightly say, it remains to be seen how relevant such luggage storage provision is in the modern day of minimal station dwell times. The best place for it these days, IMO, would be mid-train, preferably watched over by an adjacent guards' office (which was something that BR was looking at for the next refurbishment of the HSTs before privatisation intervened), rather than in end of train luggage vans.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is one of my biggest criticisms of modern long distance trains in the UK; insufficient dedicated storage space for bulky items of luggage. It's certainly a bugbear that people I know have regarding the Pendolinos. However as you quite rightly say, it remains to be seen how relevant such luggage storage provision is in the modern day of minimal station dwell times. The best place for it these days, IMO, would be mid-train, preferably watched over by an adjacent guards' office (which was something that BR was looking at for the next refurbishment of the HSTs before privatisation intervened), rather than in end of train luggage vans.

To me the best place is near the passengers it belongs to. A bay-sized area with luggage up top and bicycles/very big luggage down below per coach would handle that well.

 

[sprinterguy]

For ride quality I think the Pendolino is the best we have in this country.

I personally think that the Pendolinos ride very hard; harder still than the mark 4 carriages. They're not a patch on the ride qualities of a mark 3 coach in good condition in my opinion, however the Achilles heel of the mark 3 is the variability of the ride based on the condition of the coach as you rightly say. A mark 3 with worn suspension components can give a very poor ride, with a tendency to soss and wallow about dramatically.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The ride is absolutely terrible. Inexcusably bad. Only a Pacer seems to be worse.

I'm aware that they were notoriously poor riding when first built, and still fall short of the smoothness of ride of a mark 3 in good condition, but I don't really have a problem with the ride quality of mark 4s, unless they are running over especially rough track. I find the ride to better than that of a Pendolino, or either Voyager variant which seem to buck and sway quite abruptly over the bogies.

InterCity 70 seats are rubbish in just about every way.

I can't say that I agree, however we've already established previously that we have widely different views on seating comfort, so each to their own.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To me the best place is near the passengers it belongs to. A bay-sized area with luggage up top and bicycles/very big luggage down below per coach would handle that well.

That would seem to be a pretty good way to do it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would seem to be a pretty good way to do it.

Such an area was fitted to XC Mk2s (though it was in the middle of the coach which made it a bit awkward) and to most First North Western refurbs (150s and 142s, primarily). Worked well.

 

[Mikey C]

Two advantages of the 225's when compared to a Pendolino:

2) Vastly bigger capacity for carrying luggage, bicycles and other large objects in the DVT.
Sadly, this isn't well used, due in part to the short dwell times at intermediate stations. But I do smile when I see its door opened to reveal 40 or 60 cases which would otherwise have been clogging up the passenger carriages. A northbound at the start of the academic year at Durham is a good example. I wonder if the change of 4 Newcastle terminators running though to Edinburgh soon will reduce the Company's enthusiasm for loading Newcastle cases in the DVT.

I suppose the flip side is that as EMUs the Pendolinos are able to fit extra seats into the areas taken up by the DVT and loco!

Due to the body shape, the 390s seem to have rather shallow overhead luggage racks. When you look along a typical carriage, you see luggage overflowing into the aisle while the overhead racks are half empty.

Having said that, part of the reason I imagine is that since modern cases are wheely and easier to move around, people are able to take larger and heavier cases with them...

 

[backontrack]

In my opinion, IC225 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendolino.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Due to the body shape, the 390s seem to have rather shallow overhead luggage racks. When you look along a typical carriage, you see luggage overflowing into the aisle while the overhead racks are half empty.

They are surprisingly big, and you can get even larger cases to stay up there easily because (a) they are low down and easy to reach and (b) they are very square. They are far more practical than Mk3 luggage racks or the ridiculously small and awkward ones fitted to everything Bombardier ever built for the UK.

Siemens win on the sensibly sized racks thing, though.

 

[bairy]

Mk3 and Mk4 every time. Without a second to think about it.

Chiltern equip their coaches exceptionally well with nice seats, tables, dividers, big windows that line up. I love Chiltern so much that I'm willing to add ~30 minutes extra time Birmingham to London to use them, even when Virgin advances are cheaper.

GWR is the same, plus you can still lean out the window, something I thoroughly enjoyed as we approached Bristol.

I grant the pendy interior is "classy" but the seats aren't great, and they're so high-backed that there's not much light reaches you, and First Class isn't much better.

I would gladly take any longer journey time due to lack of tilt and have a Mk4.

It feels like the passenger part of the pendy came at the very end of their design.

 

[Marton]

I will second the GW HST. If you can retrofit a plug socket at every bay of Standard Class seats in 40 year old HST why doesn't the Pendolino? The mk4 seats took a huge step back when they got refurbed. The airline seat legroom on the GW HST is the best of any Standard Class going.



The Pendolino - that is just a coffin.

Disagree.

Just done a trip to Swansea and back from London and London to NE and back.

MkIV in first so much better than GW First. The wifi Also worked on EC[emoji3]

The GW seats at a table were also hard to get into the window seat.

 

[hibtastic]

There has been a few comments about the MkIV ride quality here and I have to agree, I am sat on one now heading back to Edinburgh from London and its bumping and swaying about all over the place. It is also in definite need of a refurb I think as the seat covers look dirty and stained.

In contrast, I travelled down to London on Friday on a Pendolino from Carlisle and I really enjoyed it - smooth ride, decent seats and a nice onboard ambiance.

 

[yorksrob]

They are surprisingly big, and you can get even larger cases to stay up there easily because (a) they are low down and easy to reach and (b) they are very square. They are far more practical than Mk3 luggage racks or the ridiculously small and awkward ones fitted to everything Bombardier ever built for the UK.

Siemens win on the sensibly sized racks thing, though.

I find the overhead racks in Mk3's very spacious - they can fit my big square travelling bag in them, which I struggle with on a lot of newer trains.

 

[Mordac]

There has been a few comments about the MkIV ride quality here and I have to agree, I am sat on one now heading back to Edinburgh from London and its bumping and swaying about all over the place. It is also in definite need of a refurb I think as the seat covers look dirty and stained.

Well they are getting refurbish.