Intention to prosecute

[Unfair12]

Hi all,

I used my Oyster card out of the oyster zone. Had no idea. First time travelling to the destination, I had sufficient funds on my oyster and even tapped in my card at previous destination.

I was told I need to pay a penalty fare, my money is on my Oyster card so didn't really have any extra expenditure.

I gave my abbreviated name, and was asked whether this was my full name, I said no and gave my full name. The guard has now accused me of giving a fake name. How is that possible when I was not told what exact details needed to be given. When asked for my full name I gave it. I was shown no id this whole time. . Do you think this is fair? It was not intentional.

Thanks

 

[bb21]

What do you mean by "abbreviated name"?

What was your journey and how much did you have on you?

 

[Unfair12]

My journey would have been £13.30 I think.
Say for instance my name was Joseph Alexander I put down J.Alex.
I offered to pay on my bank card but I wasn't sure it had sufficient funds. The guard told me that was ok and proceeded to fill out a form I had no idea that this would lead to . But I did have cash just not in the right currency.

 

[island]

Did you pay any money to the person whom you spoke to? Did you receive any paperwork?

 

[Unfair12]

No paid no money and did not get any paper work.

I know they are intending to prosecute. It just seems highly unfair. For giving a fake name and using a Oyster card.

 

[bb21]

My journey would have been £13.30 I think.
Say for instance my name was Joseph Alexander I put down J.Alex.

I can see an argument if you used a common abbreviation of your first name, not your surname. If you did not provide your full surname then I can fully understand why you were accused of supplying a false name, as you probably cannot be traced without your correct surname.

I struggle to think any formal situation where using an abbreviation of one's surname would be accepted. If you had no intention to avoid the potential consequences then you have seriously underestimated the severity of this course of action.

I offered to pay on my bank card but I wasn't sure it had sufficient funds. The guard told me that was ok and proceeded to fill out a form I had no idea that this would lead to a prosecution. .

Did the RPI refuse payment with your bank card for no particular reason? I find that most odd.

Did he refuse it after you supplied him with the incorrect name?

Clapham junction to Gatwick airport. But I did have cash just not in the right currency.

I am not aware of foreign currency being accepted onboard, so basically you had no cash on you.
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I know they are intending to prosecute. It just seems highly unfair. For giving a fake name and using a Oyster card.

Giving a fake name is a Regulation of Railways Act Section 5(3c) offence, so probably much more serious than you might have thought.

 

[Unfair12]

No at first I just gave an abbreviation of my first name and surname I.e j.alex

I had some cash but not £20 and the guard did not try my card because I told him I wasn't sure how much money I had on it.

I offered the guard my oyster which has my full name on it.

The guard never showed me any id. So, to be honest am I expected to just give my full details to a man who just asks for my details. I never lied, I just didn't know he wanted my full name. When he asked I gave it. I never put my full name on anything. From social media to anything that's personal. If he showed me I'd and told me he needed my full details I would have given it on demand.

But I never gave him a fake name. I had no intention to avoid my fare. I just made a mistake of using my oyster. I think a criminal conviction and ruining my future is unbearable. Would you suggest I need a solicitor?

 

[bb21]

I offered the guard my oyster which has my full name on it.

Was it one with a photo on it?

The guard never showed me any id. So, to be honest am I expected to just give my full details to a man who just asks for my details. I never lied, I just didn't know he wanted my full name. When he asked I gave it. I never put my full name on anything. From social media to anything that's personal. If he showed me I'd and told me he needed my full details I would have given it on demand.

If you had any suspicion that he may not be a genuine RPI, did you not ask to see his ID? It is one of the rights you have. I don't think it would go down as a valid excuse.

But I never gave him a fake name. I had no intention to avoid my fare. I just made a mistake of using my oyster. I think a criminal conviction and ruining my future is unbearable. Would you suggest I need a solicitor?

Not saying that you intended to give him a fake name, but you need to look at it from their point of view. How do you think it would go down when a person provides only part of their surname?

As to what happens next, I think you need to wait for their letter to arrive first. Did you sign anything at the end?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I was told I need to pay a penalty fare, my money is on my Oyster card so didn't really have any extra expenditure.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "didn't really have any extra" but this was your best opportunity to correct the problem if you possibly could do. Its' unfortunate that you didn't (or couldn't) take that opportunity.

If you really could not pay, then the Inspector acted quite correctly and reasonably in asking you for your name and address, so that payment of the Penalty can be obtained later.

I gave my abbreviated name, and was asked whether this was my full name, I said no and gave my full name. The guard has now accused me of giving a fake name. How is that possible when I was not told what exact details needed to be given. When asked for my full name I gave it.

It's also unfortunate that you didn't seem to cooperate as helpfully as you could. I don't know what you meant by giving an abbreviated name, but because it didn't correspond when checked, it would have appeared to be a false name. That will be what the Inspector has now written in his report.

Do you think this is fair? It was not intentional.

Yes, it is fair to offer a simple Penalty fare when passengers hadn't paid the correct amount and to take their correct name and address so that the fare can be collected later. I do feel that the Company will think it is intentional that you didn't pay when asked and that not giving the most accurate name is intentional.

Perhaps your incident will be passed to an Investigator who will agree that the name you gave was not a deceitful attempt to avoid payment and will simply ask for the correct Penalty Fare plus some payment towards the Company's administrative costs.
But, if they suspect that you had tried to avoid giving your correct name and address, then, as bb21 says, they have a clause in the Regulation of Railways Act specifically designed to capture people who give false details. It has been a common crime on the Railways for a great many years and prosecutions are regularly brought against passengers who do this.

. . . to be honest am I expected to just give my full details to a man who just asks for my details.

But he wasn't just "a man asking for your details", was he? He was a Railway Ticket Inspector - inspecting tickets on the Railways.

I think a criminal conviction and ruining my future is unbearable. Would you suggest I need a solicitor?

Not yet. Wait to see what the Company decides. I've already suggested that the investigator might agree that your name was adequate, and they'll just want the payment that you didn't make to the Inspector. But if not, then they'll write to tell you that they intend to prosecute you for giving a false name and address. At that point, a local law firm which specialises in Criminal Defence work should be able to assist, though I'm sorry to say that they'll be unlikely to make that crime go away.

 

[Unfair12]

Yes I signed something and I had 20minutes until my plane gate closed so I didn't want any trouble.

Yes my Oyster card has my photo. And I offered to show him my passport.

I know how it may look, but for personal reasons that I do not wish to enclose here, I am very protective of giving out details. Things happen in life that change your opinion and make you vulnerable, subconsciously I always give my abbriavted surname.

I saw the guard speak to another guard who was taking someone's details who also used his oyster and that's when I thought he was legit. No I never saw any id throughout this.
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Can I just clarify the guard made no check, it was not necessary it was quite obvious I did not give my full name. J. Alex. He asked me straight away if this was my full name and I said no.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I gave my correct address

 

[bb21]

I know how it may look, but for personal reasons that I do not wish to enclose here, I am very protective of giving out details. Things happen in life that change your opinion and make you vulnerable, subconsciously I always give my abbriavted surname.

That is fully understandable, however railway legislation does not make an allowance for it.

As DaveNewcastle has pointed out, the prosecution department may decide that it was not a deliberate attempt to deceive, but you need to be mindful of other possible developments.

I saw the guard speak to another guard who was taking someone's details who also used his oyster and that's when I thought he was legit. No I never saw any id throughout this.

Perhaps the mismatch of your name changed his opinion on what he would accept. I couldn't possibly say what went through his head. That said, I am not sure that Oyster is a valid form of ID (although I could be wrong on this one).

Not much you can do now unfortunately. Make sure that you keep an eye on the post in the next few weeks so that you can reply promptly when you receive their letter. If you will be away then make sure that there is someone who can regularly check your post for you.

Meanwhile write down what happened on a piece of paper before memory fades. Nothing worse than a contradictory account of what happened.

 

[Unfair12]

I understand guys. I don't want this to go to court. It's an unnecessary stress.

If he told me I need to provide full details I would have. It was right at the beginning I didn't even realise I was in any trouble.

If it does, I will be hiring a solicitor.
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Can I just mention I do not agree with fare evasion and I would never travel without a ticket. I just made the biggest mistake using my Oyster card. I wish I had known you cannot you use it. Definitely not worth a criminal record and losing a job I worked so hard to get

 

[bb21]

I agree that it would seem quite heavy-handed. It is most likely that you underestimated the severity of the action of providing a partial name. It is unfortunate the way things have turned out is all I can say and you have my sympathy.

 

[Unfair12]

Thank you. I hope I can settle this out of court. If not, I guess I have to accept that sometimes life is unfair.

Nope never knew in a million years that it would come to this. I've never broken the law. So this is a scary experience.
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Guys I would like to have my threads deleted please I did not come here to feel worse than I do

 

[455driver]

Why would you feel worse?

You made an honest mistake with the Oyster card and have been/ will be issued an Unpaid Fare Notice or a Penalty fare. All the talk of Courts etc is the worse case scenario but is very unlikely in your particular case.

Have a cup of tea and chill out!

Some people use an Oyster card as an all line railrover, I have seen people trying to use them at Portsmouth Harbour and going over distance is no biggy.

 

[bb21]

Yes, I agree. Don't beat yourself up for it. There is nothing you can do now as you can't change the past.

I don't think you will be issued with a Penalty Fare now, but the worst case scenario will be unlikely for a first offence, and there is always a good chance that a first offence can be settled without involving the courts. Even if it does, it will not always be under the Regulation of Railways Act, which is the one that will give you a criminal record if convicted under.

Learn from the experience but don't stress yourself out over it. It won't help.

 

[Unfair12]

Sorry. I am just stressed of getting convicted for giving a 'false name'.
I found out that this is a crime, even if it was not my intention.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, I agree. Don't beat yourself up for it. There is nothing you can do now as you can't change the past.

I don't think you will be issued with a Penalty Fare now, but the worst case scenario will be unlikely for a first offence, and there is always a good chance that a first offence can be settled without involving the courts. Even if it does, it will not always be under the Regulation of Railways Act, which is the one that will give you a criminal record if convicted under.

Learn from the experience but don't stress yourself out over it. It won't help.

I have definitely learnt from my experience. What hurts is that this experience could ruin my career. That is hard to take.

 

[455driver]

The chances of you being accused (never mind convicted) of giving a false name are probably about 1 in 10 million.

They might (might) go down the RoRA route but will probably offer you an admin fee (out of court settlement) to end the matter.

 

[bb21]

I won't say the chances of that happening is that low, but I agree that settlement is a likely outcome.

 

[Unfair12]

Thanks guys. I really appreciate your kindness.

How do you approach a out of court settlement? Do you do this as soon as you receive the letter for the intention to prosecute ?

I will let you know the outcome.

 

[bb21]

Thanks guys. I really appreciate your kindness.

How do you approach a out of court settlement? Do you do this as soon as you receive the letter for the intention to prosecute ?

I will let you know the outcome.

Wait for the letter to arrive first is normally what we recommend. It can though take a while, up to eight weeks in some cases.

Meanwhile do what I say and write down what happened in as much detail as you can so you don't forget, and then try and put it behind you and get on with your life. It will be difficult, but there is nothing else you can do about it now.

 

[FGW_DID]

First of all, apologies for my previous post (now deleted), it was worded a bit harsh and didn't add anything to the thread.

The OP on the face of it, has made a genuine mistake with their Oyster Card and never been in trouble with the law before, and I have no reason to disbelieve them.
What I was trying to convey, is that for reasons they do not wish to disclose, the OP is not happy with divulging personal details to strangers, which is fair enough on social media, meeting strangers on the tube etc etc but when it comes to 'officialdom' please use your full surname, it will save a lot of heartache and grief.

(I must admit, I have never heard of anybody abbreviating their surnames before!)

 

[455driver]

Wait for the letter to arrive first is normally what we recommend. It can though take a while, up to eight weeks in some cases.

Meanwhile do what I say and write down what happened in as much detail as you can so you don't forget, and then try and put it behind you and get on with your life. It will be difficult, but there is nothing else you can do about it now.

Bit bossy tonight arent we BB?

Good advice though, oh and when you have written everything down put it in a safe place where you will be able to find it again when needed.

 

[MikeWh]

(I must admit, I have never heard of anybody abbreviating their surnames before!)

I have. They are usually lengthy foreign names with plenty of scope for making spelling mistakes. Some Indian call centres give their staff simple English sounding names just to make things easier.

 

[martybabes]

If you were asked for your FULL name and failed to give it, that is one thing. If you were simply asked for your name and you gave the name you normally use, that is quite another.

Ultimately, as has already been said, make a careful and comprehensive note of all that happened because then you can use it to refresh your memory should you need to at a later date. Then wait for any paperwork to arrive as that should contain information as to what action you are then facing.

 

[jon0844]

I have. They are usually lengthy foreign names with plenty of scope for making spelling mistakes. Some Indian call centres give their staff simple English sounding names just to make things easier.

That and trying to give the impression that Mr Smith is actually just down the road from you..!

 

[Unfair12]

Thanks all for the advise.

When i was asked for my full name i gave it. The inspector wrote that initially i gave my abbreviated name as thats what im known as. Can i restate the inspector never showed me any id. I know that some of you are stressing that he is an official, fair enough, but any official needs to show id than i would have automatically registered the severity of the issue and treated him asking me for my details with more seriousness, and more than likely given him my full name straight away.

Ive used that name for years and have evidence of it.

My surname is foreign an is extremely long.

I would prefer this not go to court. If it did with full certainty i will be hiring a solicitor. My question is do i need one now?

 

[FGW_DID]

Was the inspector wearing a railway uniform? If he was wearing 'plain clothes' then he should identify himself as such with ID to prove it, however in uniform, no need to show ID.

 

[Unfair12]

He was dressed smart. I think may be a suit. But he was dressed in smart clothing

 

[Titfield]

The OP said he had 20 minutes until his plane gate closed.

This suggests he was at / his rail journey destination was at an airport.

Oyster can be used for LHR and LCY so this would suggest he was at either STN or LTN or LGW or SEN though of course he could have been further afield.

I wonder whether or not the Investigating Officer would accept that a belief that an oyster card could be used for travel to one of these destinations would be a "genuine mistake".