Intention to... prosecute :S

[LexyBoy]

I would agree that offering to pay the fare and an offer to cover their expenses (I don't know what would be a suitable offer but the suggestions I read are usually around the £200 mark) would seem like the best strategy. I would keep your story short, just say that you had misplaced your ticket with no excuses or extraneous details.

There's no mileage in looking for evidence that you had bought a ticket, as this is irrelevant to the prosecution. To mis-quote yorkie, Byelaw 18 prosecutions are for honest mistakes, there is no implication that you were evading the fare. (edit: this is intended to be somewhat in jest: my meaning is simply that by the word of the byelaws they can be applied to anyone without a valid ticket; this is not how they are really used).

It is a lot of money, but no more than the fine you would recieve if it went to court.

In total, you spent £18.00 on 2 x Anytime Day Single tickets, for a return journey which costs only £10.60 when an Off Peak Day Return ticket is purchased.

TVMs often only offer tickets Anytime tickets the night before which could explain the ticket choice.

 

[RailwayUser93]

As NONE of the TVMs (ticket machines) at Hatfield can sell advance tickets (besides from late afternoon the day before), I really have a problem believing you, or someone else, got a ticket the night before and you could forget exactly when you, or someone else, got that ticket.

It had to be the night before! How could you forget that? By being unsure, or saying you were unsure, it's no wonder the RPI thought you were lying. It doesn't sound believable at all!

And if you knew nothing about ticket prices, how could you have asked for that specific ticket? Did your friend not ask if you were coming back? Surely if they used the TVM then they would have seen the return (quite likely above the single on the list) and perhaps called you to say 'hey, it's only £xx more for a return - are you sure you don't want that?'.

My only logical conclusion, which is what I am sure FCC concluded, is that you arrived at the station on the day, saw the gates open and chanced it. If that's not the case, you'll have a job proving otherwise now - unless you can get them to check CCTV records. I sincerely doubt they'd do this, and probably only two of the four TVMs are likely to be covered anyway, and even then it wouldn't show what ticket was purchased, of if it was later given to you instead of being used by someone else. And you say you didn't buy the ticket...

I'd just seek a settlement and be a LOT more careful next time. FCC catch students all the time at Hatfield, for a range of offences. They've seen it all, believe me.

I rarely take train from Hatfield, my last experience using the machines I had to get an operator to help me as i couldnt find the option for Londons, King cross so i asked my friend to get it for me, I dont see what is confusing about that point, Was i supposed to interrogate her as to the exate date and time ? (please remember all this is being said with hindsight and at the time i had no idea anything like this would happen).
and when i was speaking to the RPI i didnt actually give details of when the ticket was purchased, it was a very brief questioning because i was running late for my job interview and tried to do this as quickly as possible.

Why would i chance it when theres gates at the otherside That doesnt make sense. Futhermore im sure i said this earlier but I SAW THE INSPECTORS on the platform at Hatfield and SAW them board my train

Its not that i knew nothing about ticket prices i had a rough idea, they were hardly gonna charge 30 pounds just to go finsbury and another of my friends advised me that it wouldnt be much just for a train to finsbury which isnt that far.

To be honest, I dont really like your manner and tone.You weren't there therefor you cant assume what happened and i understand you being sceptical as you probably hear stories that sound odd daily but still your 'logical conclusion' is wrong.

i said earlier my reasoning for not wanting a return so please refer to that. Even on buses where i know im going back to Hatfield i dont buy returns only singles as i often take alternative routes back (ie. a different bus) so it would render the return useless.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One word of caution to the OP:

The version of events that you are supplying is coming across as evasive and contradictory with several places where you seem to change or embellish your story. To be quite blunt it has a bad smell about it and if you come across this way to an audience that is sympathetic to your case and willing to help - please consider how it might be taken by a more hostile audience.

I remain concerned that knowledgeable people are still picking holes in your account - bear in mind that FCC's prosecutions dept know just as much (and probably more) than the folks on this forum and these type of discrepancies will be immediately picked up by them and potentially used against you should it come to court. If FCC or a court doubt what you are saying it will only make matters worse for you.

I would suggest that when you get back in contact with FCC you set out the events clearly, truthfully and completely, along with an offer of an out of court settlement, as Yorkie says there are some prior threads that can help you work out what a suitable offer may be. This is by far the best way to avoid picking up a criminal conviction that, whilst not reportable, given the profession you have chosen still carries the potential that it may negatively impact your future.

change or embellish story? This is strange as the only detail which i changed was when the ticket was bought, this is because i gave money to my friend days before as they frequently use the station and i really dislike the machines at hatfield + didnt want to queue up on the day
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How did you pay for the underground journey? Oyster or cash?

To be clear, did you meet the RPI on your southbound journey from Hatfield to Finsbury Park?

Assuming you've been taught to think like a lawyer, you must be able to imagine how this appears to the other side.

I'm also confused by your apparent inability to operate ticket machines, and also your apparent lack of familiarity with London and its transport network - surely everyone your age goes on nights out in central London?

I can only defer to the advice of others about what to do next. Once you've drafted a letter you might care to see if anyone here would read through your draft (by PM). Not me, as I don't have the right experience to be able to assist.

I paid for my underground journey by cash, i realised i had forgotten my oyster back at campus so had to pay for all my underground trains and buses at full price, which again worked out costly but as i said my main concern was the job interview not expenses on travel.

I dont usually take railway trains nor do i ever go out for nights in central london,
im not familliar with North London because i dont ever go there only south london

Some of the assumptions in this thread strike me as quite odd and it is worrying that people are so sceptical and judgemental over losing a ticket Im not the most organised of people and i do frequently lose things (hence why i forgot to bring my oyster aswell).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've got an idea. You could ask your friend what date and approx time they bought your ticket.

And I have to say that I don't really buy the "as i dont know how to operate the ticket machines". Unless you've tried to use them then presumably you don't know you can't operate them. I might believe that if you are an older person who hasn't been brought up with any technology - but a uni student? Do you have a lap top, mobile phone, smart phone? Do you manage to get them to work?

Are you really comparing my Laptop mobile phone to a ticket machine.

I do not paticuarly want to be able to use a ticket machine i rarely take railway train so they are not something i need to learn to use nor are they a requirement.The last time i tried to use it last year to get a ticket to Kings cross i couldnt even find the kings cross option and had to get one of the attendeds to assist

I own a laptop, iphone 4s and a blackberry i 'manage to get them to work' because i want to use them and use it for communication and my university work , hardly think its comparable to a ticket machine

 

[All Line Rover]

I paid for my underground journey by cash, i realised i had forgotten my oyster back at campus so had to pay for all my underground trains and buses at full price, which again worked out costly but as i said my main concern was the job interview not expenses on travel

Without wishing to offend, and I'd like to put this in the nicest way possible... do you have some sort of medical condition that justifies you being, well, a bit "forgetful?" As a lot of things seem to be going wrong here. You couldn't remember the cost of your ticket, even though you had given money to a friend to buy one. (Most people can remember how much cash they gave to someone). You can't work out how to use a ticket machine, even though you are a law student at uni. (What university I don't know!). You forget your Oyster card so pay for your underground journey by cash. (Even though most people keep their Oyster card in their wallet, handbag or coat pocket - i.e. close to their cash). Basically you forget (or for some reason or another can't prove) every possible piece of evidence that could be used to back up your story.

I don't want people to judge your "forgetfulness" if there is a reason for it, but if there isn't, I can imagine many people on this forum - as well as FCC - being very suspicious.

 

[yorkie]

Well, you have a choice:

1) Tell FCC the above, and see what happens. They may drop the case as they realise your story is genuine (highly unlikely IMO), or they may proceed with the prosecution (likely; they'll win - guaranteed) or they may in fact go for a Regulation of Railways Act offence on the basis that they may believe they can prove intent, with potentially disastrous consequences for you.

2) Follow the advice as above, posted by MarkyMarkD and myself and following the advice given by DaveNewcastle aimed at another member (but I believe it still applies to your scenario).

3) Do something else, of your choice.

That choice is up to you. I do not see how we are able to assist further.

If you are telling us that you paid 2 x £4.30 cash fares on London Underground, in addition to 2 x £9.00 Anytime Day Single fares, plus 2 x full price bus fares at £2.30 apiece, then I find this difficult to believe, unless you have only very recently moved to London and are unfamiliar with London travel pricing?

A return from Hatfield to Finsbury Park is £10.60, while an inclusive Travelcard, including all travel in London would be £17.00. It appears you claim to have spent £31.20? While this may well be true, whether FCC or a Court would believe it, I couldn't possibly comment...

 

[All Line Rover]

Are you really comparing my Laptop mobile phone to a ticket machine.

I do not paticuarly want to be able to use a ticket machine i rarely take railway train so they are not something i need to learn to use nor are they a requirement.The last time i tried to use it last year to get a ticket to Kings cross i couldnt even find the kings cross option and had to get one of the attendeds to assist

I own a laptop, iphone 4s and a blackberry i 'manage to get them to work' because i want to use them and use it for communication and my university work , hardly think its comparable to a ticket machine

No, it's just that ticket machines are designed to be intuitive and easy to use, and anyone who can read and is reasonably familiar with technology should be able to use a ticket machine without fuss. If you can pick up an iPhone and work out how to take a photo within a few seconds, you should be able to work out how to use a ticket machine.

 

[RailwayUser93]

Without wishing to offend, and I'd like to put this in the nicest way possible... do you have some sort of medical condition that justifies you being, well, a bit "forgetful?" As a lot of things seem to be going wrong here. You couldn't remember the cost of your ticket, even though you had given money to a friend to buy one. (Most people can remember how much cash they gave to someone). You can't work out how to use a ticket machine, even though you are a law student at uni. (What university I don't know!). You forget your Oyster card so pay for your underground journey by cash. (Even though most people keep their Oyster card in their wallet, handbag or coat pocket - i.e. close to their cash). Basically you forget (or for some reason or another can't prove) every possible piece of evidence that could be used to back up your story.

I don't want people to judge your "forgetfulness" if there is a reason for it, but if there isn't, I can imagine many people on this forum - as well as FCC - being very suspicious.

Please read up, i said i gave my friend 10 pounds.
I rarely use trains and the time i did use it once last year the ticket machine wasnt displaying the correct destination for me. I know roughly how to use underground machines as i sometimes used to take the tube

God forbid anyone should ever forget their oyster, how dare they
Please read what has been stated, Im a student and my university is in Hatfield. Please tell me where in Hatfield would i usually be using oysters that i would be carrying it in a handbag or coat pocket

The only issue that i can see would be abit misleading was when the ticket was purchased. As for the price please be serious . I was able to give the range of how much it costs. Same way i would only give a range of how much a chocolate bar i bought cost '40 something p' rather than exact cost. Its not as if im a frequent user of railway trains for me to remember the exact cost

 

[blacknight]

I know realise i wasted a lot of money that day which was quite sillly of me but I had no idea the return would be so cheap, Im not even sure why a single fare is so high if its going to be almost the same price as the return.

Minimises any losses through fare evasion to TOC's should person get lucky free ride into town in morning by making them pay almost as much for a single ticket home.

 

[LexyBoy]

Some of the assumptions in this thread strike me as quite odd and it is worrying that people are so sceptical and judgemental over losing a ticket Im not the most organised of people and i do frequently lose things (hence why i forgot to bring my oyster aswell).

You'll find us to be a fairly skeptical lot in general .

I think yorkie has summed up your options pretty well. FCC have issued a notice of intention to prosecute, for an offense which you are undoubtedly guilty of. Whether you had bought a ticket or not is immaterial. You could follow option (1) and appeal to the goodness of their hearts, but it's entirely possible that FCC would laugh heartily as they pick out inconsitencies and decide to persue a (much) worse course of action.

I do not paticuarly want to be able to use a ticket machine i rarely take railway train so they are not something i need to learn to use nor are they a requirement.The last time i tried to use it last year to get a ticket to Kings cross i couldnt even find the kings cross option and had to get one of the attendeds to assist

I don't think this is unreasonable. It isn't just a matter of knowing how to use a machine, but also knowing at least a little of the ticketing system (e.g. that a return is often the same price as a single, or when Off Peak tickets are valid, or that you can't buy a ticket to Kings Cross but need London Terminals instead). Ticket machines have a terrible interface IMO and fundamentally do not do the same thing as a human ticket office clerk.

 

[All Line Rover]

I don't think this is unreasonable. It isn't just a matter of knowing how to use a machine, but also knowing at least a little of the ticketing system (e.g. that a return is often the same price as a single, or when Off Peak tickets are valid, or that you can't buy a ticket to Kings Cross but need London Terminals instead). Ticket machines have a terrible interface IMO and fundamentally do not do the same thing as a human ticket office clerk.

That is true, but then it strikes one as odd that the OP did not simply buy their ticket from the ticket office on the day of travel.

 

[RailwayUser93]

Well, you have a choice:

1) Tell FCC the above, and see what happens. They may drop the case as they realise your story is genuine (highly unlikely IMO), or they may proceed with the prosecution (likely; they'll win - guaranteed) or they may in fact go for a Regulation of Railways Act offence on the basis that they may believe they can prove intent, with potentially disastrous consequences for you.

2) Follow the advice as above, posted by MarkyMarkD and myself and following the advice given by DaveNewcastle aimed at another member (but I believe it still applies to your scenario).

3) Do something else, of your choice.

That choice is up to you. I do not see how we are able to assist further.

If you are telling us that you paid 2 x £4.30 cash fares on London Underground, in addition to 2 x £9.00 Anytime Day Single fares, plus 2 x full price bus fares at £2.30 apiece, then I find this difficult to believe, unless you have only very recently moved to London and are unfamiliar with London travel pricing?
A return from Hatfield to Finsbury Park is £10.60, while an inclusive Travelcard, including all travel in London would be £17.00. It appears you claim to have spent £31.20? While this may well be true, whether FCC or a Court would believe it, I couldn't possibly comment...

On the journey back to Hatfield I returned with someone who can verify this as they got on the same bus back with me and helped me to use the machine when purchasing another single ticket going towards Hatfield.
(This person went to the same job interview as me and goes to my uni)

I actually did pay alll that money fair enough its not very cost effective but that simply shows i shouldve planned better for my day. I do not see how costs would prove anything other than i paid a ridiculoously high amount.

Like i said and will say again I rarely ever take railway train that was only possibly my 3rd time taking railway train from Hatfield. I am a first year student so only just moved into the Hatfield area last year

 

[ralphchadkirk]

(What university I don't know!)

If he came from Hatfield, then it's most likely Hertfordshire University.


Something in the story doesn't ring true for me. It could be correct, but I would just say, it is in your interest to be absolutely truthful with FCC. If you try and make things up they will catch you out, and then you're looking at a much more serious offence.

 

[RailwayUser93]

That is true, but then it strikes one as odd that the OP did not simply buy their ticket from the ticket office on the day of travel.

I didnt want there to be a possibility of a long queue at the ticket office or end up missing thetrain on the day, same reasons most people chose not to use ticket offices on the day.

I really do not see what is so hard to believe I think a lot of your experiences on this forum have made you 'case-hardened'. Im sorry im not an expertise criminal and didnt prepare a watertight story before posting here
Thank you to those who are genuinely trying to help and not make assumptions of guilt

I knew from the start this was a strict liability offence I was just tried to state reasonings and know of what consequences are possible as this is not something i hold any of kind knowledge about.

and Yorkie i agree the best option is the one you and Marky set out

 

[DaveNewcastle]

We seem to be straying from the original request now.

The advice from Yorkie and MarkyMarkD is appropriate here, but I should clarify one point: While there may be an opportunity to make an 'Out of Court Settlement' (OOC) with FCC, you are not in a position to do so yet. At this moment, your task is to make the Written Statement of events as requested. Based on that document, a decision may be made which will include the possibilities of Prosecution and of closing the matter.
It is during that decision making stage that you may want to consider asking if an offer will be accepted. Its not for you to presume that amount, the Prosecutors will have an indication of their costs already.

Right now, you could take the critical posts on here as indicative of how your Statement may be scrutinised for incriminating factors. You should be in no doubt that your Statement (plus the Statement you gave on the day and the Inspector's own Statement) will be scrutinised, and inconsistencies or self-incrimination will be very apparent.

However, if you write a factual and honest account of the incident and make an appropriate apology then you can follow it up in a couple of weeks with a call to ask if it has been considered yet and how you want to take the matter forward.
My concern at present is that you are likely to incriminate yourself further and would do well to consider your situation from the point of view of a Prosecutor who a) is a full-time dedicated professional dealing only with reports of suspected Fare Evasion (or other ticketless travel incidents), b) has "heard it all before" and knows that everyone detected without a ticket has some 'story' to tell, and c) knows perfectly well that everyone whose reports they are reading doesn't want to be prosecuted. These facts are common to all cases and don't make yours appear any different to any other - they're not going to stop them from doing what they're employed to do, which is to Prosecute those who breach the Law or Byelaws.

Having said that, it does appear that you are only being investigated for a Byelaw Offence which is not a Criminal matter and is not, in the bigger picture of your intended career, such a grave concern. Just take care not to incriminate yourself with a Regulation of Railways Act S.5 offence while you're writing!

I'd expect that an appropriate explanation and apology would stand a reasonable chance of resulting in an OOC if there is no prior record.

 

[blacknight]

If you are telling us that you paid 2 x £4.30 cash fares on London Underground, in addition to 2 x £9.00 Anytime Day Single fares, plus 2 x full price bus fares at £2.30 apiece.

With money management skills like that little wonder students these days are in so much debt when they finish university.

 

[RailwayUser93]

We seem to be straying from the original request now.

The advice from Yorkie and MarkyMarkD is appropriate here, but I should clarify one point: While there may be an opportunity to make an 'Out of Court Settlement' with FCC, you are not in a position to do so yet. At this moment, your task is to make the Written Statement of events as requested. Based on that document, a decision may be made which will include the possibilities of prosecution or closing the matter.
It is during that decision making stage that you may want to consider asking if an offer will be accepted.

Right now, you could take the critical posts on here as indicative of how your Statement may be scrutinised for incriminating factors. You should be in no doubt that your Statement (plus the Statement you gave on the day and the Inspector's own Statement) will be scrutinised and inconsistencies or self-incrimination will be apparent.

However, if you write a factual and honest account of the incident and make an appropriate apology then you can follow it up in a couple of weeks with a call to ask if it has been considered yet and how you want to take the matter forward.
My concern at present is that you are likely to incriminate yourself further and would do well to consider your situation from the point of view of a Prosecutor who a) is a full-time dedicated professional dealing only with reports of suspected Fare Evasion (or other ticketless travel incidents), b) has "heard it all before" and knows that everyone detected without a ticket has some 'story' to tell, and c) knows perfectly well that everyone whose reports they are reading doesn't want to be prosecuted. These facts are common to all cases and don't make yours appear any different to any other - they're not going to stop them from doing what they're employed to do, which is to Prosecute those who breach the Law or Byelaws.

Having said that, it does appear that you are only being investigated for a Byelaw Offence which is not a Criminal matter and is not, in the bigger picture of your intended career, such a grave concern. Just take care not to incriminate yourself with a Regulation of Railways Act S.5 offence while you're writing!

Thank you,
This is also a helpful post.

When i explained the situation to the inspector he seemed to understand it, he wasnt even sceptical he just asked a couple of brief questions, was nowhere near as doubtful or interogating as some of these posts have been
He took my details down and told me i would be required to write a letter back stating what happened.

 

[michael769]

change or embellish story? This is strange as the only detail which i changed was when the ticket was bought, this is because i gave money to my friend days before as they frequently use the station and i really dislike the machines at hatfield + didnt want to queue up on the day

That is exactly what I am talking about. I don't know at what stage your legal training is it but at some point you will discover how an effective prosecutor can pounce on something like that and easily turn it from what you think is a minor omission into a really huge deal.

As I said folks on this forum are reasonably open minded and sympathetic to people in your situation. FCCs prosecution department is not, nor will a judge if it went as far as court. if you are having trouble convincing folks here then you need to understand that it will me many magnitudes harder in court.

Please do take care when you contact FCC that you do not talk yourself into facing an altogether more serious charge. The advice given here is in part to help you avoid that scenario.

 

[RailwayUser93]

That is exactly what I am talking about. I don't know at what stage your legal training is it but at some point you will discover how an effective prosecutor can pounce on something like that and easily turn it from what you think is a minor omission into a really huge deal.

As I said folks on this forum are reasonably open minded and sympathetic to people in your situation. FCCs prosecution department is not, nor will a judge if it went as far as court. if you are having trouble convincing folks here then you need to understand that it will me many magnitudes harder in court.

Please do take care when you contact FCC that you do not talk yourself into facing an altogether more serious charge. The advice given here is in part to help you avoid that scenario.

Thank you,



I have got all the information I need now and will be writing a letter to the prosectutions department.

 

[jon0844]

I think it's time for me to drop out of this one - as the story is so full of holes, we'll probably find that the OP ends up jailed by the end of it.

These are my final comments before I suggest the OP makes a decision on what to do and limit the damage.

I rarely take train from Hatfield, my last experience using the machines I had to get an operator to help me as i couldnt find the option for Londons, King cross so i asked my friend to get it for me, I dont see what is confusing about that point, Was i supposed to interrogate her as to the exate date and time ? (please remember all this is being said with hindsight and at the time i had no idea anything like this would happen).
and when i was speaking to the RPI i didnt actually give details of when the ticket was purchased, it was a very brief questioning because i was running late for my job interview and tried to do this as quickly as possible.

Why would i chance it when theres gates at the otherside That doesnt make sense. Futhermore im sure i said this earlier but I SAW THE INSPECTORS on the platform at Hatfield and SAW them board my train

Its not that i knew nothing about ticket prices i had a rough idea, they were hardly gonna charge 30 pounds just to go finsbury and another of my friends advised me that it wouldnt be much just for a train to finsbury which isnt that far.

To be honest, I dont really like your manner and tone.You weren't there therefor you cant assume what happened and i understand you being sceptical as you probably hear stories that sound odd daily but still your 'logical conclusion' is wrong.

i said earlier my reasoning for not wanting a return so please refer to that. Even on buses where i know im going back to Hatfield i dont buy returns only singles as i often take alternative routes back (ie. a different bus) so it would render the return useless.

1) If you have an Oyster and rarely travel by train to or from Hatfield, I presume you live in London. If so, how do you get to/from Hatfield normally? Bus?

2) If the person buying the ticket did so the night before you went, it's not something you'd forget. If it was many months in advance, yes.

3) You were running late for a job interview? Why get the ticket in advance and still turn up late? Surely you know FCC will just use this to prove that you most likely turned up without a ticket, saw the train, was running late and you just went for it. Perhaps you just hoped to talk your way out of it (by stating you lost your ticket) or thought the worst that could happen was a £20 penalty fare?

4) I'd have NO idea on how much to pay if I'd never travelled before - so why did you think £10 was enough, if you've said you knew it was definitely not going to be £30. Perhaps not, but what about £15 or £20?

5) My manner and tone is going to be no different than the questions you'd be asked if you let this go to court. What I say makes no difference, but what they do very likely will.

6) You've now said you don't buy returns for another reason, which implies you knew you could get return tickets by train - but you weren't sure you'd be going back by train. If that's the case, fair point but why even mention you didn't know about there being a return ticket? In London, everything is sold as single tickets - but if you've ever used Uno buses (the bus service run by Hertfordshire University) you'd know they do return tickets, so the concept wouldn't be alien to you.

Sorry if this sounds rude and offensive, but with the story you've given and the constantly changing aspects, it really IS the logical conclusion that it's full of inaccuracies, which may get you into much more trouble.

 

[island]

To be honest, I dont really like your manner and tone.You weren't there therefor you cant assume what happened and i understand you being sceptical as you probably hear stories that sound odd daily but still your 'logical conclusion' is wrong.

That is neither here nor there. Liking people's manner and tone is irrelevant; you have committed a criminal offence and I assume your goal is trying to avoid a criminal conviction. Let me assure you that going on like that will get you at best nowhere with the FCC prosecutions department.

I agree with the recommendations above that you should write a clear, concise, consistent, and honest account in reply to FCC and not include anything extraneous or anything that might tend to incriminate you. At that point if they indicate an intention to prosecute, you can offer a sum of money in respect of their administrative costs and fare avoided with the hope that the matter will go no further.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I should have added one more point to my post for completeness:
The letter you have received is not only inviting you to provide a Statement of Facts which will inform the decision-making process, but is also an opportunity for you to provide Evidence in support of your 'story'. Evidence of course can be much more persuasive than a mere explanation.

I got the impression that you don't have any Evidence which might illustrate that you had paid for an appropriate ticket and/or that you did have that ticket (somewhere), which is why I didn't mention it. But if I'm wrong, and you can provide Evidence to challenge the suggestion of ticketless travel, then now's the time!
At the very least, you might find that 'your friend' can make a Statement which confirms part of the 'story' you have reported on here (unless 'your friend' is an exceptional person then their Statement isn't going to amount to much in terms of Evidence, but it might just make the workload for a Prosecutor look more troublesome than its worth! Just might.).

 

[RailwayUser93]

I think it's time for me to drop out of this one - as the story is so full of holes, we'll probably find that the OP ends up jailed by the end of it.

These are my final comments before I suggest the OP makes a decision on what to do and limit the damage.



1) If you have an Oyster and rarely travel by train to or from Hatfield, I presume you live in London. If so, how do you get to/from Hatfield normally? Bus?

2) If the person buying the ticket did so the night before you went, it's not something you'd forget. If it was many months in advance, yes.

3) You were running late for a job interview? Why get the ticket in advance and still turn up late? Surely you know FCC will just use this to prove that you most likely turned up without a ticket, saw the train, was running late and you just went for it. Perhaps you just hoped to talk your way out of it (by stating you lost your ticket) or thought the worst that could happen was a £20 penalty fare?

4) I'd have NO idea on how much to pay if I'd never travelled before - so why did you think £10 was enough, if you've said you knew it was definitely not going to be £30. Perhaps not, but what about £15 or £20?

5) My manner and tone is going to be no different than the questions you'd be asked if you let this go to court. What I say makes no difference, but what they do very likely will.

6) You've now said you don't buy returns for another reason, which implies you knew you could get return tickets by train - but you weren't sure you'd be going back by train. If that's the case, fair point but why even mention you didn't know about there being a return ticket? In London, everything is sold as single tickets - but if you've ever used Uno buses (the bus service run by Hertfordshire University) you'd know they do return tickets, so the concept wouldn't be alien to you.

Sorry if this sounds rude and offensive, but with the story you've given and the constantly changing aspects, it really IS the logical conclusion that it's full of inaccuracies, which may get you into much more trouble.

I usually take bus to and from Hatfield, but the point is since ive been at uni I dont usually go back to London

Your saying this as if i knew i was going to be late ,And i was not late for the train, infact I was waiting at the platform for awhile

Your asking me why I didnt give 20 pounds Really ?... Your line of questioning is very strange.Again this is irrelevant

Look i didnt buy a return ticket because i thought it would be really expensive ( turns out it wasnt), plus i had the possibility of taking bus back which i stated earlier. It makes no sense to question why i didnt buy a return ticket because its not actually relevant to anything.



Its strange how this society is that they find it hard to believe a ticket was lost, and if the railway company prosecution think in the same manner that you 'jon morris' do, then there is no hope and they wil be prosecuting someone for something that could happen to anyone, I cant force you to believe me but i have just tried to inform you as to what happened, you may think its silly i didnt just buy a return ticket but i truly was not weighing up the pros and cons of single v return ticket, you have gone completley of the point and you are questioning as to why i didnt buy a return ticket.

I just feel sad and confused that i came here for advice on the questions i asked and was instead bombarded with this


Anyway I would ike to end this matter and i have taken into consideration the helpful posts. Thank you so much guys and i hope they show understanding to this matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I should have added one more point to my post for completeness:
The letter you have received is not only inviting you to provide a Statement of Facts which will inform the decision-making process, but is also an opportunity for you to provide Evidence in support of your 'story'. Evidence of course can be much more persuasive than a mere explanation.

I got the impression that you don't have any Evidence which might illustrate that you had paid for an appropriate ticket and/or that you did have that ticket (somewhere), which is why I didn't mention it. But if I'm wrong, and you can provide Evidence to challenge the suggestion of ticketless travel, then now's the time!
At the very least, you might find that 'your friend' can make a Statement which confirms part of the 'story' you have reported on here (unless 'your friend' is an exceptional person then their Statement isn't going to amount to much in terms of Evidence, but it might just make the workload for a Prosecutor look more troublesome than its worth! Just might.).

Thank you once again youve been very helpful and straight to the point and ive sent the letter to them

 

[All Line Rover]

Thank you once again youve been very helpful and straight to the point and ive sent the letter to them

Please do keep us informed of how things go. Much of the advice you have been given, such as the amounts people have settled for, wouldn't have been possible if they hadn't let us know.

 

[Ferret]

Railuser93, you may object to Jonmorris' tone, but he's actually doing you a favour. How he's analysing this is exactly how FCC's prosecution team will. And that's probably the same as the ticket inspector's scepticism at the time

I wish you luck in solving this issue - but alas your account of events is at best a little odd! Keep us updated though.

 

[jon0844]

I usually take bus to and from Hatfield, but the point is since ive been at uni I dont usually go back to London

Fair enough.

Its strange how this society is that they find it hard to believe a ticket was lost, and if the railway company prosecution think in the same manner that you 'jon morris' do, then there is no hope and they wil be prosecuting someone for something that could happen to anyone, I cant force you to believe me but i have just tried to inform you as to what happened, you may think its silly i didnt just buy a return ticket but i truly was not weighing up the pros and cons of single v return ticket, you have gone completley of the point and you are questioning as to why i didnt buy a return ticket.

Forget the return ticket bit for a second. You've made out as if travelling by rail is an incredibly complicated, tricky and confusing experience. You therefore got someone else to buy a ticket, which had to be the night before (yet you can't remember as it could have been then or possibly weeks before).

Can you say when you last remember seeing you had the ticket? I mean, if you were flying somewhere then you'd check before leaving home that you had your ticket. So from being given the ticket the night before, where did you put it and did you ever check again? Did you not double check in the morning? It certainly got lost quickly, as if the RPIs boarded at Hatfield then they'll have begun doing their check immediately.

The gates were open, so you didn't think you needed your ticket (even though a lot of people actually still put their ticket in the machine regardless) - but I know that personally, I usually have my ticket ready before I walk into the building. If I notice they're open I put it away, unless it's a carnet that I need to validate. How close did you get to them before you noticed they were open, and not feel the need to check again you had your ticket before crossing the yellow line with the 'WARNING' poster?

I just feel sad and confused that i came here for advice on the questions i asked and was instead bombarded with this

I really wouldn't let anyone here, least of all me, upset you when you're studying law. Consider this a very good taster of what you've got to come, and learn from it. It may well help your studies considerably, depending on your chosen field!

We're simply trying to help you before this goes to court (if it does) as you'll be shown no mercy there. You must know that if you're studying law!!

 

[Darandio]

Its strange how this society is that they find it hard to believe a ticket was lost, and if the railway company prosecution think in the same manner that you 'jon morris' do, then there is no hope and they wil be prosecuting someone for something that could happen to anyone, I cant force you to believe me but i have just tried to inform you as to what happened, you may think its silly i didnt just buy a return ticket but i truly was not weighing up the pros and cons of single v return ticket, you have gone completley of the point and you are questioning as to why i didnt buy a return ticket.

I just feel sad and confused that i came here for advice on the questions i asked and was instead bombarded with this

Because not everyone who asks for advice is being fully truthful. In some cases, they will come here for advice and concoct a cock and bull story in order to receive advice, not to prove their innocence, but to "get off" because they were clearly in the wrong.

Given the obvious holes in your story at certain points (which does not mean it isn't all true so no bombardment here ) then you must be able to appreciate why it is sometimes hard to determine whether the truth is actually being told.

Put yourself in their shoes, guys that have helped countless amounts of people, for free and in their own time. Imagine getting taken for a ride more than once, then you can probably understand why people do "bombard" and try to find answers through flaws.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

I'd echo all of the above. It is better that you have come here to discuss this issue, with people who can present a variety of challenges which the TOC's prosecutions team may come up with, rather than certain other websites which will just bombard you with platitudes like "isn't it awful", "it's unfair", "you ought to sue them" and all sorts of other tosh.

By following our combined advice, there is some reasonable chance of a favourable response from FCC. TOCs don't really like taking people to court for the sake of it; they only do so if there is (a) a reasonable chance of conviction and (b) something to be achieved by it. Doing so for a first offence is relatively unusual, unless people incriminate themselves by their initial or subsequent explanations. (And in the worst cases, say things like "but I've been doing the same thing for months/years", which is almost guaranteed to get pursued vigorously!).

 

[jon0844]

I think a more likely story is that the OP woke up late, panicked about a pending job interview (and the likely stress that any interview can put you under) and rushed for the train. With the gates open, the OP then thought to chance it - but RPIs put paid to that plan and the story was made up, quickly, which is why it is full of holes.

Under such circumstances again, if you really were in such a rush for a genuine reason, I'd have gone straight to the RPIs before boarding and explained that you HAD to get that train no matter what, and you'd gladly pay the penalty fare (as paying £20 would be preferable to not getting a new job). I am sure they'd help you out, and if you produced some evidence of your job interview they might even - although not guaranteed - show discretion and let you buy a normal return ticket as a goodwill gesture before wishing you luck.

FCC RPIs aren't all nasty individuals (far from it) but I bet they didn't believe a word of what you told them. I can't remember a time travelling anywhere without checking I had my ticket every now and then, so if you were waiting a while for the train then you should have noticed before being asked to show it as the train left.

 

[142094]

Its strange how this society is that they find it hard to believe a ticket was lost, and if the railway company prosecution think in the same manner that you 'jon morris' do, then there is no hope and they wil be prosecuting someone for something that could happen to anyone, I cant force you to believe me but i have just tried to inform you as to what happened, you may think its silly i didnt just buy a return ticket but i truly was not weighing up the pros and cons of single v return ticket, you have gone completley of the point and you are questioning as to why i didnt buy a return ticket.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people in society that will use the same excuse to get away with paying for a ticket, and if everyone did the same, we wouldn't have a railway for the rest of us.

Now, if some members on here are doubting the accuracy of your story, then how will this look to the Prosecutions department of a TOC? Easy money I expect if it did go to court.

 

[ainsworth74]

I can't remember a time travelling anywhere without checking I had my ticket every now and then, so if you were waiting a while for the train then you should have noticed before being asked to show it as the train left.

Yes this is one part of the story I find quite interesting, when exactly did RailwayUser93 realise that they didn't have their ticket?

Personally assuming I have tickets in advance I'll check I've got them the night before the journey, before I leave the house that morning, once I'm at the train station and fairly regularly throughout the day until I've finished with the last ticket. Surely at the very least it's common sense to ensure you've got your ticket before you leave the house?

Still I wish you well in your dealings with FCC but as others have said (I'd re-read all the advice from Yorkie and DaveNewcastle before responding) be careful in what you say as otherwise you'll leave FCC with an open goal of a case which would have very serious consequences.

 

[34D]

Anyway I would ike to end this matter and i have taken into consideration the helpful posts. Thank you so much guys and i hope they show understanding to this matter.

Thank you once again youve been very helpful and straight to the point and ive sent the letter to them

A pity you didn't run the letter by someone like Dave Newcastle for feedback.

But please update us, good or bad.

Next time you need to make a train/tube/coach journey, then post here in advance, and wed be happy to set out some of the best ticket options for you. We're actually a nice lot of people in general. Example, if you get your placement in Camden Town and need to travel there every day.

One final point. When paying cash for a ticket at a machine, it is possible to request a receipt. Did your friend by any chance do this?