Intent to Prosecute for Short Ticket

[camsmith]

I was stopped for having a short ticket from (£3.50) instead (£20). I did this as they have been extremely relaxed with ticket checking and never scan tickets, as long as you have a valid ticket you can get through the barriers.

However, one inspector went to scan one day and knew I hadn’t scanned in at a station. He said they will find out everything, and I didn’t want to say this was my only time doing it in case they found out and I got in deeper trouble. So I said 2/3 times I’ve used this short ticket, but I did show them examples of a full trip I have done too.

I have received a letter in the post claiming they have an intention to take me to court and want me to reply with my version of events. The wording "did enter a train for purpose of travel without a valid ticket" and does not mention any other offences, just the specific occasion I was stopped. Having searched this, I can see this letter is fairly common for fare evasion, and I am really hoping it’s just a fine and out of court settlement.

Does anyone have any experience in this, or know how many cases actually end up in court?

 

[skyhigh]

Does anyone have any experience in this, or know how many cases actually end up in court?

It will probably depend how many times you've actually done this. They will be able to request your purchase history from retailers such as Trainline and see how many times this has happened. The more times you've done it, the greater the amount they may look for as an out of court settlement or they may refuse a settlement at all. If you've previously been given a penalty fare or the like again that reduces the chances of any settlement.

The best advice is probably to write back apologising for your actions, making it clear it won't happen again and offering to pay any costs to conclude the matter.

If you do get a settlement, don't expect it to be cheap.

 

[camsmith]

They have not asked about previous times. Do they have time/resource to look into my payment history I have plenty of examples of valid tickets? Trainline under a different email and my first time going through this process.

Will be happy with any fine at this point

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Here’s the advice I normally give to people coming here to ask for advice in similar circumstances to yourself.

What you are accused of is known as ‘doughnutting’, ie buying a ticket for each end of the journey but leaving a large gap in the middle.

It is important that you reply to the letter you have received and you might want to mention the following:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

You are not required to incriminate yourself further so I would confine your reply to the specific reply they are asking you about, unless they have referred to or asked about previous occasions of a similar nature.

Feel free to post a draft copy of your reply here, with personal details redacted, and forum members will be happy to proof read it.

 

[camsmith]

Thank you. I have already wrote my reply out, but gave a good read of the forum and have mentioned all the bullets points above as well as trying to paint a picture that it wasn’t “intentional” on this occasion. I am fully aware they could prosecute, I’m 23 and just acquired my first job after a masters degree - so I am very much hoping to not undo that good work - I wasn’t actually aware how serious of a matter this is - and hope they don’t have the time or resource for a first offender

Caught between a rock and a hard place as I cannot mention the real events which happened as that is admitting to fare evading with intent

 

[WesternLancer]

Do they have time/resource to look into my payment history? Trainline under a different email and my first time going through this process.

I don't have any great insights on that - but I suspect it is relatively easy for them to check the payment method used (not just the e-mail on the account), so if you are using the same bank account for example I would tend to think that would flag up - and they would have an incentive to look in as much as they have caught you, you have admitted to one case at least, they now have your address etc - all they need to take it to court and secure a guilty verdict - so looking at the cases they do have a person caught for in more detail would seem a good use of their time, I would have thought.

But I would assume that if they check this and strongly suspect other instances they will put that as an accusation in there further response to you.

But this is good advice:

You are not required to incriminate yourself further so I would confine your reply to the specific reply they are asking you about, unless they have referred to or asked about previous occasions of a similar nature.

So you need to take care about your exact wording in your response to them.

 

[camsmith]

Having just graduated from my masters degree in Sheffield, and acquired my first job in February, the London commuting is a new experience for me. I do appreciate the seriousness of this matter, and offer my sincerest apologies for my stupidity and naivety and I seriously regret this incident. I can assure you this mistake will never be made again. This is a life lesson learnt, I have subsequently endeavoured to allow sufficient time for each travel journey to avoid such reoccurrence from this error.

In addition, I am willing to cover the cost of the travel, subsequent penalty and your admin costs. Again, please accept my sincere apologies.

This was part of the reply

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I was stopped for having a short ticket from St Pancras to Farringdon (£3.50) instead of Stevenage to farridngon (£20). I did this as they have been extremely relaxed with ticket checking and never scan tickets, as long as you have a valid ticket you can get through the barriers.

I have already wrote my reply out,

If your reply includes something like the bit I have quoted from your first post, can I suggest that you omit it - or at least reword it? You didn't shortfare because tickets weren't being checked: you thought you could get away with it because tickets weren't being checked.

It's for you to know why you did it: I imagine it was to save money but that was to benefit you rather than because of some failing on the part of the railway. Since it's the railway who you want now to be kind to you and let you settle this out of court, it's not a good idea to write and suggest that they are at fault rather than accepting that you were the one who was wrong.

 

[camsmith]

"Firstly, I usually travel into work only on a Tuesday. On this particular week, I was asked to go in Friday for a meeting. It was busier than I was anticipating and as a result, I didn’t have an opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding. Once on board, and settled I knew I needed to purchase a ticket. However, due to multiple tunnels and very poor signal en route the first opportunity was at Finsbury Park and the Trainline app did not allow me to buy a ticket for a departing train, so I got one for the next available.

Having been stopped by an inspector, I immediately felt panicked with the realisation I could be seriously late for my meeting. I tried to be as compliant and concise as possible, however I found their line of questioning was rather rapid and unnerving for me.

Having just graduated from my masters degree in Sheffield, and acquired my first job in February, the London commuting is a new experience for me. I do appreciate the seriousness of this matter, and offer my sincerest apologies for my stupidity and naivety and I seriously regret this incident. I can assure you this mistake will never be made again. This is a life lesson learnt, I have subsequently endeavoured to allow sufficient time for each travel journey to avoid such reoccurrence from this error.

In addition, I am willing to cover the cost of the travel, subsequent penalty and your admin costs. Again, please accept my sincere apologies."

From this, I am trying not to incriminate myself by admitting to fare evasion with intent which will almost certainly result in Court. I am trying to paint a picture that there isn't intent, while they cannot easily prove nor disprove the story, especially as it is referring to one case. I did say to the inspector it was busy at Stevenage and should have made time before arriving at the station to buy a ticket. Hoping by offering my apologies, and swearing it wont happen again (which it certainly won't) and being the first time in this process that a settlement can be agreed.

 

[Haywain]

"Firstly, I usually travel into work only on a Tuesday. On this particular week, I was asked to go in Friday for a meeting. It was busier than I was anticipating and as a result, I didn’t have an opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding. Once on board, and settled I knew I needed to purchase a ticket. However, due to multiple tunnels and very poor signal en route the first opportunity was at Finsbury Park and the Trainline app did not allow me to buy a ticket for a departing train, so I got one for the next available.

Having been stopped by an inspector, I immediately felt panicked with the realisation I could be seriously late for my meeting. I tried to be as compliant and concise as possible, however I found their line of questioning was rather rapid and unnerving for me.

Having just graduated from my masters degree in Sheffield, and acquired my first job in February, the London commuting is a new experience for me. I do appreciate the seriousness of this matter, and offer my sincerest apologies for my stupidity and naivety and I seriously regret this incident. I can assure you this mistake will never be made again. This is a life lesson learnt, I have subsequently endeavoured to allow sufficient time for each travel journey to avoid such reoccurrence from this error.

In addition, I am willing to cover the cost of the travel, subsequent penalty and your admin costs. Again, please accept my sincere apologies."

From this, I am trying not to incriminate myself by admitting to fare evasion with intent which will almost certainly result in Court. I am trying to paint a picture that there isn't intent, while they cannot easily prove nor disprove the story, especially as it is referring to one case. I did say to the inspector it was busy at Stevenage and should have made time before arriving at the station to buy a ticket. Hoping by offering my apologies, and swearing it wont happen again (which it certainly won't) and being the first time in this process that a settlement can be agreed.

How did you get through the barriers at Stevenage?

I would suggest that the stuff about not being able to buy a ticket due to tunnels etc just doesn’t hold water. If you had been keen enough to buy one you could have done it easily.

 

[skyhigh]

"Firstly, I usually travel into work only on a Tuesday. On this particular week, I was asked to go in Friday for a meeting. It was busier than I was anticipating and as a result, I didn’t have an opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding. Once on board, and settled I knew I needed to purchase a ticket. However, due to multiple tunnels and very poor signal en route the first opportunity was at Finsbury Park and the Trainline app did not allow me to buy a ticket for a departing train, so I got one for the next available.

Lies like that will do you no good at all if you get found out.

If the ticket you were using on the day was purchased on the same Trainline account it is trivially easy to see the previous history.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 May 2022 ==

Caught between a rock and a hard place as I cannot mention the real events which happened as that is admitting to fare evading with intent

In which case say very little, don't lie.

 

[camsmith]

Is that giving them ammunition by admitting to deliberately fare evading?

There is still ambiguity to prove it. How could they access purchase history with just my name, email and address?

Easy to say now, but I really cannot have a criminal record after working so hard to get to where I am. I am still overdrawn and at the time of the offence deeply overdrawn, and I was careless and cut corners.

 

[WesternLancer]

"Firstly, I usually travel into work only on a Tuesday. On this particular week, I was asked to go in Friday for a meeting. It was busier than I was anticipating and as a result, I didn’t have an opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding. Once on board, and settled I knew I needed to purchase a ticket. However, due to multiple tunnels and very poor signal en route the first opportunity was at Finsbury Park and the Trainline app did not allow me to buy a ticket for a departing train, so I got one for the next available.

Having been stopped by an inspector, I immediately felt panicked with the realisation I could be seriously late for my meeting. I tried to be as compliant and concise as possible, however I found their line of questioning was rather rapid and unnerving for me.

Having just graduated from my masters degree in Sheffield, and acquired my first job in February, the London commuting is a new experience for me. I do appreciate the seriousness of this matter, and offer my sincerest apologies for my stupidity and naivety and I seriously regret this incident. I can assure you this mistake will never be made again. This is a life lesson learnt, I have subsequently endeavoured to allow sufficient time for each travel journey to avoid such reoccurrence from this error.

In addition, I am willing to cover the cost of the travel, subsequent penalty and your admin costs. Again, please accept my sincere apologies."

From this, I am trying not to incriminate myself by admitting to fare evasion with intent which will almost certainly result in Court. I am trying to paint a picture that there isn't intent, while they cannot easily prove nor disprove the story, especially as it is referring to one case. I did say to the inspector it was busy at Stevenage and should have made time before arriving at the station to buy a ticket. Hoping by offering my apologies, and swearing it wont happen again (which it certainly won't) and being the first time in this process that a settlement can be agreed.

I'd omit much of the 1st and 2nd para really. Have a look at it from another way - eg would you go into a shop and shop lift stuff because you were running late and didn't have time to pay? OK maybe not the best comparison but try and think what the person reading your letter is going to think.

Plus you told the inspector you had done it 2 or 3 times so that will be in the notes they have (no need for them to check Trainline account - you admitted it) - where does that fit into the story about being late / a meeting / poor signal due to tunnels etc? It serves to undermine that excuse IMHO.

Probably best focus on the apology, promise not to do it again, show remorse, and respectfully ask if you can settle - the stuff in the latter part of the letter really. And don't 'endeavor' to leave enough time. 'Ensure' that you do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 May 2022 ==


EDIT - Just saw your post #12 after I posted the above ref your reply (apols - I thought it was a draft not already sent)

There is still ambiguity to prove it. How could they access purchase history with just my name, email and address?

compare methods of payment if the same bank account was used maybe.

The letter is already wrote, is it possible to request a new one? And if so, what is the best response to not take this to courts.

OK if that was what you have already sent then you probably have to live with it - they are not going to ignore it and wait for a different story I don't think (I fear it might arouse greater suspicion) - In which case depending on what they respond to you with you may well need to head back here for further advice.

Easy to say now, but I really cannot have a criminal record after working so hard to get to where I am. I am still overdrawn and at the time of the offence deeply overdrawn, and I was careless and cut corners.

It may be possible to write to them again after they respond to your reply, again pressing to see if they will settle without court with another letter.
BUT - if it is that vital to your future you may wish to get some quotes for a solicitors help - that will of course be at a cost, but it may be cheaper than the issue standing in the way of your career and future income. It may be best to wait and see how they respond to you before engaging a solicitor, but you could ring some for quotes maybe.

 

[camsmith]

I will be happy to pay the max fine of £1,000 if it means no conviction. I’m on a fairly decent salary with a London job and had 4 years of uni experience. I’m very much keeping this quiet from them

 

[jumble]

Is that giving them ammunition by admitting to deliberately fare evading?

There is still ambiguity to prove it. How could they access purchase history with just my name, email and address?

The letter is already wrote, is it possible to request a new one? And if so, what is the best response to not take this to courts.

Easy to say now, but I really cannot have a criminal record after working so hard to get to where I am. I am still overdrawn and at the time of the offence deeply overdrawn, and I was careless and cut corners.

I am in agreement with @skyhigh would keep things very simple and not come up with explanations

It suffices to say
I have been stupid
I have learned a painfull lesson and I undertake not to repeat this stupidity
I am willing to cover the cost of the travel, subsequent penalty and your admin costs.
Please accept my sincere apologies."

 

[camsmith]

How would you word it?

 

[WesternLancer]

I mean it is wrote, but not sent! I may be able to call and request a new letter.

I will be happy to pay the max fine of £1,000 if it means no conviction. I’m on a fairly decent salary with a London job and had 4 years of uni experience. I’m very much keeping this quiet from them

I don't think you can get a fine levied by a court and it have no conviction / record (others who have advised on other threads about the court process and the record that results would be better placed to explain that - but the general consensus is that if it does happen it is not the end of the world for this offence)

What you need is to press for a settlement without court action (an out of court settlement) that has no record and is not a fine as such - it is a payment to the railway company in exchange they will not proceed to court. Most such payments seem to be less than £1000.

Ref your reply - do you mean you have written it on the actual paperwork they have sent you, but now want to change it? Is it on the back of the form? - could you photocopy or scan the original, blank out what you have written and then write again? This might be unorthodox bit people might have reason to do that if they had eg split coffee all over the from.

 

[camsmith]

I don't think you can get a fine levied by a court and it have no conviction / record (others who have advised on other threads about the court process and the record that results would be better placed to explain that - but the general consensus is that if it does happen it is not the end of the world for this offence)

What you need is to press for a settlement without court action (an out of court settlement) that has no record and is not a fine as such - it is a payment to the railway company in exchange they will not proceed to court. Most such payments seem to be less than £1000.

Ref your reply - do you mean you have written it on the actual paperwork they have sent you, but now want to change it? Is it on the back of the form? - could you photocopy or scan the original, blank out what you have written and then write again? This might be unorthodox bit people might have reason to do that if they had eg split coffee all over the from.

Yes the paperwork is double sided, and wrote the reply out on the reverse. The longest para's are the apologetic paragraphs, and it is the genuine truth I would never do this again, a huge wake up call that I never knew was so serious.

I have read it may pass as a byelaw should it go that far, I'm not bothered about the fine, I only care about a criminal record and how my current and future employers would see it.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

However, one inspector went to scan one day and knew I hadn’t scanned in at St Pancras.

There are legitimate reasons why tickets don't show as having been scanned

 

[skyhigh]

There are legitimate reasons why tickets don't show as having been scanned

Yes... but from the OP they admitted to the inspector who stopped them that they had short fared, so that has little relevance now.

 

[camsmith]

Yes... but from the OP they admitted to the inspector who stopped them that they had short fared, so that has little relevance now.

I did say that I tried to get in through St Pancras and glanced the ticket at them and they let me through. He was having none of it and said not a chance, on today of all days! Must have been a clamp down day. Then said stop lying, show me your address or wait for the police, so complied

 

[skyhigh]

I did say that I tried to get in through St Pancras and glanced the ticket at them and they let me through. He was having none of it and said not a chance, on today of all days! Must have been a clamp down day. Then said stop lying, show me your address or wait for the police, so complied

How did you get through the barriers at Stevenage without a ticket?

 

[camsmith]

How did you get through the barriers at Stevenage without a ticket?

Panicked is the simple answer. He asked if I had a forms of payment, and I said yes, so was hoping it would be an on the spot fine.

 

[Haywain]

Panicked is the simple answer. He asked if I had a forms of payment, and I said yes, so was hoping it would be an on the spot fine. In reality it was a further station which does not have barriers, but Stevenage sometimes has barriers down and would be considerably less

So, you started this thread by being untruthful (lying) with us, and yet want help. The train company will be able to pick holes in your story just as we can. You need to start being completely honest about this.

 

[camsmith]

So, you started this thread by being untruthful (lying) with us, and yet want help. The train company will be able to pick holes in your story just as we can. You need to start being completely honest about this.

Sorry, not intentionally! The fact of the matter remains the same. My main concern is being completely honest in the letter will confirm their suspicious of being fraudulent which I am desperate to avoid

 

[skyhigh]

This whole post may come across fairly bluntly, but I really am trying to be helpful.

In reality it was a further station which does not have barriers, but Stevenage sometimes has barriers down and would be considerably less

Sorry, not intentionally! The fact of the matter remains the same.

When you were stopped, did you tell the inspector you'd come from Stevenage or did you tell them the real station? The matter is worse if you travelled further and knew the fare to Stevenage would be "considerably less" so told them you'd come from there instead!

"Firstly, I usually travel into work only on a Tuesday. On this particular week, I was asked to go in Friday for a meeting. It was busier than I was anticipating and as a result, I didn’t have an opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding. Once on board, and settled I knew I needed to purchase a ticket. However, due to multiple tunnels and very poor signal en route the first opportunity was at Finsbury Park and the Trainline app did not allow me to buy a ticket for a departing train, so I got one for the next available.

What you wrote here was a complete lie. Send that to the train company and if they find out you've done it 6 times and travelled from a different station to the one you told them you can wave goodbye to any chance of a settlement offer. If you make bare faced lies to the train company and get found out, they might fancy a pop at a Fraud prosecution.

There is a careful line between incriminating yourself and lying. In your letter to the train company you just need to keep it simple, apologise for what has happened but do not make false claims or excuses because you're digging yourself a big hole if you get found out.

 

[Watershed]

Sorry, not intentionally! The fact of the matter remains the same. My main concern is being completely honest in the letter will confirm their suspicious of being fraudulent which I am desperate to avoid

It doesn't remain the same at all.

You say it was a mistake but even in describing the events to us you are giving false information!

You may be exceedingly lucky and they may only look at that day's incident and offer a settlement based on that. There is probably no harm in wording your letter to them ambiguously, such as to neither confirm or deny whether there were other instances.

But it is far more likely that they are aware of all the instances, as it wouldn't be too hard to look up any accounts you held, and hence tickets you have bought, from your name and address. Indeed it is even possible that they might offer a settlement for that day's incident and then later uncover the history of short faring - and then prosecute you for that.

The only way to be sure that any settlement covers all incidents is to be upfront and mention them. Equally, that may cause them to be more inclined to prosecute you.

Ultimately, this is a situation entirely of your own making and therefore one way or another, there is a distinct possibility you will be prosecuted and convicted as a result.

A conviction would be unlikely to be the end of your career, but for any workplace or sector where they care about convictions - you will need to be able to give a good explanation as to why you chose to short fare despite, by your own admission, being "on a fairly decent salary"...

 

[camsmith]

This whole post may come across fairly bluntly, but I really am trying to be helpful.



When you were stopped, did you tell the inspector you'd come from Stevenage or did you tell them the real station? The matter is worse if you travelled further and knew the fare to Stevenage would be "considerably less" so told them you'd come from there instead!


What you wrote here was a complete lie. Send that to the train company and if they find out you've done it 6 times and travelled from a different station to the one you told them you can wave goodbye to any chance of a settlement offer. If you make bare faced lies to the train company and get found out, they might fancy a pop at a Fraud prosecution.

There is a careful line between incriminating yourself and lying. In your letter to the train company you just need to keep it simple, apologise for what has happened but do not make false claims or excuses because you're digging yourself a big hole if you get fou

What would you say to address the point but not say very much? Perhaps I was found out for not having a valid ticket and i am very sorry and go from there so I've addressed it and then can say the remorse?

 

[AlterEgo]

What would you say to address the point but not say very much? Perhaps I was found out for not having a valid ticket and i am very sorry and go from there so I've addressed it and then can say the remorse? The letter is already wrote, and I very much feel I want to write a new one now. It has not been sent off and I probably have a week or so to do so

Yes. Explain you are sorry you have presented an invalid ticket and realise it’s your responsibility to buy the correct one. Do not tell lies and do not incriminate yourself.

 

[Haywain]

Stevenage sometimes has barriers down

It will be very easy for the train company to check whether that was the case at the time you would have passed through.